A few thoughts on filework

Bjmac said:
what do YOU mean? are you sidin with that Zito feller and ganging up on an old man? Tee hee hee. Hope I gotchas both with a little funnin, cause ifin we ain't careful , some snowflakes feelins are gonna be hurt, and we cain't have that.
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I can say that I did not see any of that when I looked at your knife when you posted it.

Siding what that feller??? Ahhhhhhhh.. Who. :oops: Fraid so. I have a old big blue cooking pot full of my mistakes. You can get one to at a garage sale. I sure did not mean to hurt any snowflake feelings. It's a nice knife. We all make mistakes.
 
I started the thread because I have been seeing a growing number of instances where makers were putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. Filework is the area I mentioned specifically, but the point can have a broader impact and apply to other embellishments, Damascus, San-mai.....whatever.

Its perfectly fine and normal to practice those aspects, (if you don't practice, you'll never get good at it right?) but practice needs to be separated from application. The danger comes in when a maker is distracted by the new techniques or the hot flavor of the day materials but forgets to devote any further attention to the basic fundamentals, which sets the foundation for all the rest of our work, the rest of our careers. The more techniques you apply and the more distractions you have from trying new things, the easier it is for the ever so important basics to be lost in the shuffle.
 
Since others have brought it into play, and it appears that @Bjmac has a good sense of humor and the appropriate open-mindedness, I'm guessing he won't mind mind if we look at his pictures a little closer.

Filework is the specific aspect I used in this thread so this knife might provide a good example. Lets look at the filework itself:
Capture+_2019-08-21-07-44-59~2.png

In my opinion, it isn't great....but it isn't the worst I've seen. It's pretty even and I can definitely see that he has the right file cuts in the right places for this pattern. In all honesty, he's only about another half hour of finishing/crisping file cuts away from taking this from mediocre to really good. That's pretty easily attainable.

So lets assume the next time the filework is really good. There are still some areas on this knife that would distract from and nullify even really good filework, in my opinion.

Capture+_2019-08-21-07-45-52~2.png

In the previous pic and this one, we can see and it has been mentioned by others, that there are some issues with the fit of the scales/liners to the tang and also some fit issues with the copper liners to the scales themselves. But also, in this pic I can see that the butt ends of the scales themselves are both different thicknesses and shaped with different radii. This is telling me the handle scales are asymetric side to side.

In the previous pic, it also looks like the scales are uneven side to side. And it looks like the pin is not flush with the scales and sharp edges of it are exposed.

Capture+_2019-08-21-07-46-20~2.png

In this pic, I can't see the whole knife so handle shape and overall flow/proportions can't be accurately assessed but I like the blade shape quite well and there is a nice visually pleasing radius leading from the end of the handle into the heel of the blade.

The copper liner appears longer than the scale which I find visually distracting. The finish on the blade itself seems gritty, muddy and washed out looking but there could be several factors at play there and without more info I couldn't comment on how to remedy that.

So in summary, this knife to me is a good example of the original post where I personally would have liked to see some of the fit and finish issues addressed before moving on to filework. This is a case where even really good filework doesn't overcome the other mentioned issues.

Sometimes mistakes are easy to fix and sometimes its actually far easier to throw it in the scrap drawer (I have one) and start over. If I get thinking about how to and how long it takes to fix all the mistakes and it starts to feel daunting, its usually time to start over. Or at least pop the scales off, fix the blade if necessary/possible and redo the handle.

@Bjmac....I appreciate your volunteering your pics up and your sense of humor and thick skin. You have some skills and if there is anything you like about my knives or my style and there is anything I can do to help you out, please do not hesitate to reach out.
 
J. Doyle said:
Since others have brought it into play, and it appears that @Bjmac has a good sense of humor and the appropriate open-mindedness, I'm guessing he won't mind mind if we look at his pictures a little closer.

Filework is the specific aspect I used in this thread so this knife might provide a good example. Lets look at the filework itself:
View attachment 69727

In my opinion, it isn't great....but it isn't the worst I've seen. It's pretty even and I can definitely see that he has the right file cuts in the right places for this pattern. In all honesty, he's only about another half hour of finishing/crisping file cuts away from taking this from mediocre to really good. That's pretty easily attainable.

So lets assume the next time the filework is really good. There are still some areas on this knife that would distract from and nullify even really good filework, in my opinion.

View attachment 69728

In the previous pic and this one, we can see and it has been mentioned by others, that there are some issues with the fit of the scales/liners to the tang and also some fit issues with the copper liners to the scales themselves. But also, in this pic I can see that the butt ends of the scales themselves are both different thicknesses and shaped with different radii. This is telling me the handle scales are asymetric side to side.

In the previous pic, it also looks like the scales are uneven side to side. And it looks like the pin is not flush with the scales and sharp edges of it are exposed.

View attachment 69729

In this pic, I can't see the whole knife so handle shape and overall flow/proportions can't be accurately assessed but I like the blade shape quite well and there is a nice visually pleasing radius leading from the end of the handle into the heel of the blade.

The copper liner appears longer than the scale which I find visually distracting. The finish on the blade itself seems gritty, muddy and washed out looking but there could be several factors at play there and without more info I couldn't comment on how to remedy that.

So in summary, this knife to me is a good example of the original post where I personally would have liked to see some of the fit and finish issues addressed before moving on to filework. This is a case where even really good filework doesn't overcome the other mentioned issues.

Sometimes mistakes are easy to fix and sometimes its actually far easier to throw it in the scrap drawer (I have one) and start over. If I get thinking about how to and how long it takes to fix all the mistakes and it starts to feel daunting, its usually time to start over. Or at least pop the scales off, fix the blade if necessary/possible and redo the handle.

@Bjmac....I appreciate your volunteering your pics up and your sense of humor and thick skin. You have some skills and if there is anything you like about my knives or my style and there is anything I can do to help you out, please do not hesitate to reach out.
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This one post was super helpful, I thank @Bjmac for allowing the use of his work to help us all and I thank @J.Doyle for taking the time to improve the community. That kind of stuff is why this is the ONLY knife making forum out there as far as I am concerned. I have never considered myself a custom knife maker or even thought about it. I have always concentrated more on the steel and its performance. I started to make knives because none I used would hold an edge to my standards. I have devoted a lot of time to learning the simple steels I use and I can make a knife cut and hold an edge (to my standards). I have studied (and experimented with) types of grinds and what they are suited for not just how they look. I know what grinds I like for specific tasks. I think it is time for me to move on to concentrating on fit and finish (because too many of you are better at it than I am) while maintaining my standards on performance and usage. I appreciate the nudge from J.Doyle to be more concerned with improving and not just producing.
 
J. Doyle said:
Since others have brought it into play, and it appears that @Bjmac has a good sense of humor and the appropriate open-mindedness, I'm guessing he won't mind mind if we look at his pictures a little closer.

Filework is the specific aspect I used in this thread so this knife might provide a good example. Lets look at the filework itself:
View attachment 69727

In my opinion, it isn't great....but it isn't the worst I've seen. It's pretty even and I can definitely see that he has the right file cuts in the right places for this pattern. In all honesty, he's only about another half hour of finishing/crisping file cuts away from taking this from mediocre to really good. That's pretty easily attainable.

So lets assume the next time the filework is really good. There are still some areas on this knife that would distract from and nullify even really good filework, in my opinion.

View attachment 69728

In the previous pic and this one, we can see and it has been mentioned by others, that there are some issues with the fit of the scales/liners to the tang and also some fit issues with the copper liners to the scales themselves. But also, in this pic I can see that the butt ends of the scales themselves are both different thicknesses and shaped with different radii. This is telling me the handle scales are asymetric side to side.

In the previous pic, it also looks like the scales are uneven side to side. And it looks like the pin is not flush with the scales and sharp edges of it are exposed.

View attachment 69729

In this pic, I can't see the whole knife so handle shape and overall flow/proportions can't be accurately assessed but I like the blade shape quite well and there is a nice visually pleasing radius leading from the end of the handle into the heel of the blade.

The copper liner appears longer than the scale which I find visually distracting. The finish on the blade itself seems gritty, muddy and washed out looking but there could be several factors at play there and without more info I couldn't comment on how to remedy that.

So in summary, this knife to me is a good example of the original post where I personally would have liked to see some of the fit and finish issues addressed before moving on to filework. This is a case where even really good filework doesn't overcome the other mentioned issues.

Sometimes mistakes are easy to fix and sometimes its actually far easier to throw it in the scrap drawer (I have one) and start over. If I get thinking about how to and how long it takes to fix all the mistakes and it starts to feel daunting, its usually time to start over. Or at least pop the scales off, fix the blade if necessary/possible and redo the handle.

@Bjmac....I appreciate your volunteering your pics up and your sense of humor and thick skin. You have some skills and if there is anything you like about my knives or my style and there is anything I can do to help you out, please do not hesitate to reach out.
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John, now this is what I'm talking (writing) about. Your review of this knife is what I personally need. I want the experience of y'all to show me where I need to improve. I'm also hoping that your comments cause others to take a realistic look at their own projects and make themselves better.
And I reiterate - we gotta have a sense of humor while writing and reading these critiques because they are all meant to help.
At least no-one said " nice knife - stick it in your heart and give it up , loser."
 
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The late Wayne Goddard use to like doing embellishments. He had told me about a knife he had made that he had also scrimshawed that he was quite proud of. He said he had sold it at a show and the customer had offered him an extra couple hundred bucks to remove the scrimshaw. I don't recall Wayne doing anymore scrimshaw after that.
 
One of the things I've learned from this thread is to be more critical of my own work at every stage. For example, I have been working on and off on five bird and trout knives, and also two that I already had heat treated and was ready to proceed further with. Now looking with a more critical eye I think there is one that is probably usable. Not saying the others can't be salvaged (unsure on that yet). But out of seven knives there's only one I can look at with complete satisfaction and say "I've done my best work on this one". And that one still needs to be heat treated, so I could definitely still mess up.

I think that just makes me more aware of what I need to do, and also slows me down. I'm not by nature a very patient person and knife making from that perspective really stretches that in a good way. I want a knife done now and glowingly perfect! Alas I haven't gotten even close to that and probably won't for some time.
 
J. Doyle said:
This has been an interesting and hopefully informative thread. I like this forum and the family like environment and the refreshing lack of drama.

The main reason I started the thread, and what the purpose of any critique by anyone here should be, is not to berate or belittle anyone's skill but rather to help ALL OF US think about what we're doing, learn and become the best knifemakers we can be.

My own knives are not above critique and I can guarantee you they aren't flawless. I've learned (and am still learning) how to minimize the flaws and make fewer and smaller flaws but they aren't perfect.....they're still made by my imperfect human hands.

But one thing I can tell you, I try really hard to pay attention to every detail. And I put thought into the 'why' of almost every aspect of the build. So even if another doesn't like something I've done, I at least have a reason or explanation of why I chose to do that. It doesn't necessarily make me right.......or wrong. But there was a thought process, a plan. Nothing was an oversight and there was a rhyme or reason to most everything.

Just investing the time into that thought process will automatically add some quality to your build.
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John we are fortunate to have you on the forum.
 
If you care at all about your knives then it hurts a little to have the flaws pointed out. But that is the only way to learn. I learned a long time ago that the best feedback I ever got was honest and to the point. Though it stings to hear it, there is no malice in the intent. Quite the opposite. If people didn't care about helping your they'd just pat you on the back and let you keep sucking.

When you see an obvious flaw that is so super easy to correct, you have to believe that the person doesn't know what to look for, or else they'd have fixed it. I believe that the biggest difference between a stunningly clean knife and a clunker is knowing what to look for at each stage of the process.

Knowing what to look for is step 1, but step 2 is to implement changes to your process to avoid these things.

Your process needs checkpoints. It's too late to fix liners that stick out into the ricasso area after the handle is glued up. So you learn during the handle making process to do a dry fit-up and look for that kind of thing. You learn to finish the front of the handle completely before you glue it up because you can't get to it later without buggering up the ricasso.

Your process will be a lot more repeatable with the right tools. Handle symmetry requires that you be able to look down on the handle from any and all directions. This is why a knifemaker's vise is so valuable. It's so hard to see symmetry when you have to be a contortionist to look at the handle while the knife is clamped to a board or chucked up in a machine vise, or when you have to constantly take the knife out of your vise and hold up to the light and then chuck it back up and try to remember where it was fat or out of shape.
 
opaul said:
Follow up to above posting...…..I don't know whose work this is but it lacks - a lot.
and based on the criteria I suggested above this is the feedback
1. The knife does not look balanced, it seems the handle was just stuck on the blade.
2. The fit and finish is poor - the front of the scales has a hard edge as well as the handle being cigar shaped and resembling a round dowel.
3. The pin placement is obviously lacking in uniformity and placement. The center pin is not centered and the front pin is low on the center line. The large 'fancy' pin overpowers the entire knife.
4. Ricasso - not clearly defined and uneven.
5. Plunge line definition...…..hard to see as it lacks definition and sharpness - washed out would be a better definition.
6. Blade grinding - very washed out looking. The attempt to get a high grind and a visible flat failed miserably. There are grind marks that hours of hand sanding would not remove.
7. Overall...…..good attempt but poor execution in all aspects of craftsmanship. Nice try, can't wait to see the next one.

I'm sure others will chime in.

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Ok guys. I thought I would get some feed back on this knife I posted. It is actually a knife I did about two years ago.
I posted tongue in cheek but as you see we can have a critical eye with our own work. It just takes looking.
 
This thread reminds me so much of the "First Knife - Post Up" thread. That thread should be a sticky. Every new maker should read that thread in its entirety.

John Doyle's work is the epitome of file work down right. A new maker probably wouldn't even recognize the filework on his knives as filework, because the devil is in the details. The coined spacers, the chamfers, the grooves in the collars, the accent work that totally blends into the flow of the shape it is accenting like the handle pommel and butt accents. It doesn't look like filework- it looks like it was somehow always there. You notice the knife first, then your eye begins to pick up the details. And the details justify themselves because if you imagine that area of the knife without the detail work, it wouldn't be quite as nice. The embellishment isn't just good, it elevates that particular component- but it wasn't the embellishment that stood out at first.

My knives have just about zero embellishment. My goal this year is to begin the process of adding those features, although not on every knife. In fact, on very few knives because most of what I make are kitchen knives and I'm not trying to make Liberace's Chef Knife, which is most likely what the first ten attempts will look like until I can figure out how to add embellishments as an understatement. That, to me, is the height of the craft unless you are making fantasy knives. Just my opinion.
 
John Wilson said:
Your process will be a lot more repeatable with the right tools. Handle symmetry requires that you be able to look down on the handle from any and all directions. This is why a knifemaker's vise is so valuable. It's so hard to see symmetry when you have to be a contortionist to look at the handle while the knife is clamped to a board or chucked up in a machine vise, or when you have to constantly take the knife out of your vise and hold up to the light and then chuck it back up and try to remember where it was fat or out of shape.
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Handle symmetry is something I'm working on. I guess a knifemaker's vise will be my next purchase or build.

This thread has really given me an idea of the questions I need to be asking, as well as what I'll be scrutinizing with greater intensity.
 
Heikki said:
Handle symmetry is something I'm working on. I guess a knifemaker's vise will be my next purchase or build.

This thread has really given me an idea of the questions I need to be asking, as well as what I'll be scrutinizing with greater intensity.
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Isn't it cool how that works?
 
I tried asymmetrical handles and although they felt very good to my hand , the optics were off. Don't know any answers other than go back to symmetric handles.
 
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