FINALLY!!!! A BRAND NEW 3 PHASE/w VFD!!!! But I do have some questions

McClellan Made Blades

McClellan Made Blades

Well-Known Member
Hey Dawgs!
I've got a bit of good news to share as well as a couple of questions I think I know the right answers to, but if there is a better way to do it, then I'd love to hear about it.
Yesterday my new 3 Phase 2hp Motor/VFD set up came in! I went with a 2 hp, because I felt the deal as just too good to pass up!
Waa hoo! Now I've finally got some of the 20th century technology! That I've so seriously needed, I've been grinding with a single speed of 3650 rpm's! I hope learning at that speed may be in some way helpful for making my grinds a little cleaner, I hope!

I talked to my bro-in-law about helping me hook it up, (one of those better SAFE THAN SORRY DEALS!) HE'S A CERTIFIED ELECTRICIAN, HVAC rated too, MY Bro-in-Law is the best Bro-in law in the world!!!!!

I plan on hooking it up as a direct drive, he mentioned using a Lovejoy connector, it should enable me to connect the motor shaft to the drive shaft of the grinder. While that looks like a great way to do it and certainly a viable way to make that connection. The best I can tell, is that it should work, BUT! I'm not sure if that is the BEST WAY, (I'm simply saying, I DON'T KNOW!) There could be something I'm not aware of, that may work better, so if anyone knows of a better way or what would be considered the best way to make this connection.
Making my KMG into a direct drive, may not be the way it was intended to be used, i don't know. While I'm not sure if they were designed to be a direct drive.
I'm pretty sure they were NOT designed to NOT be capable of being a direct Drive!

Next, if my base plate isn't drilled and tapped for the motor, the holes in the back will have to be done with the right alignment in order to get the motor lined up properly, that will be the toughest part of this, if I have to drill and tap the Beaumont 1/2" base plate, I bought for the grinder, motor, and (I hope I can rig up) a place for my VFD.

Next, the place I got my motor/VFD from, (while it was a GREAT PRICE), their price for a NEMA 4 box was a lot too much, while I'm not sure how much they cost anywhere else, I felt like $400.00 for it was too expensive(THE PRICE FOR THIS BOX WAS NOT!), I felt like I could weld a box up for it, that would protect it, provided I can get a decent seal on it, my plan was to weld it up, not trying to get it to be air tight with the weld, but come back behind that with some sort of Silicon sealant, that will fill any gaps, now the front of it, that will be the main problem, being able to seal it and get to my controls. Now, I haven't really sat down and looked at any other boxes or any other solutions that others have come up with so they wouldn't have to purchase one, like I said I don't know how much they cost at other places, I don't have the dimensions of my VFD inside the house, but, I'm sure there has been some others that have come up with a different way to take care of their VFD's without buying a box, OR they found a place that sells them for a reasonable price! If anyone knows of that place, where I can buy one reasonably, please let me know, where and about how much, it would be I can get the measurements when needed. It would be much appreciated. BTW, I also had the idea to weld up some thermo- plastic, as another possibility, I want to explore every idea that won't cost too much, but the one that I do choose, will be the one that will be there. With BLADE so close, I don't want to spend any extra money anywhere that's not planned.

OK, Thanks guys, I appreciate any info y'all can give me, time for me to get back to the shop!
Rex
 
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Congrats on the new motor and VFD. What vfd did you get? What rpm is motor? I will answer more tomorrow when i have a feal keyboard.
 
KenH said:
Congrats on the new motor and VFD. What vfd did you get? What rpm is motor? I will answer more tomorrow when i have a feal keyboard.
Click to expand...

Hey Ken,
Here is the info from the page, I bought it from Dealers Electric, I felt like it was a stupid good deal,
I checked with the folks at Dealers Electric, I gave them basic info about what I was doing, and what I wanted, and this was their suggestion,
the price was so good I had to chance it! But, I will have to say that the knowledge needed to install one of these jewels isn't a cursory
understanding of electricity! They said EVERYTHING NEEDED to hook it up came with it, I seriously hope it's tucked inside one of them somewhere,
because this is all that came with it! Right away, I didn't understand that, I at least know you have to have some wires to run into it! And between the 2 parts, I know I will have to supply the input lines, but you have to have some some wires that run between the FD and the motor!
Just for away to hook it. NOT KNOWING and KNOWING that I didn't KNOW, the info I needed, I called my Brother in Law, who does KNOW! He wired my entire shop, the wire coming into my shop had been installed before we moved in here, we weren't sure if they were planning on starting some sort of business that required enough power to run 10's of thousand's of volts, the wire is no less than 2 inches in diameter, Bro-N-Law said, "Well at least we won't have to worry if it can handle anything you want to throw at it!" I said, "That's exactly what I've thought from day one!" Anyway, this will give you every bit of info about it that there is, as far as I know! Thanks Buddy, Rex


Techtop Motor/Teco Drive
2HP%203600RPM%20Package%20Techtop.jpg

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2 HP, 3600 RPM, Techtop Motor with 2 HP, 230 Volts, Teco VFD
Item #: 2 HP 3600 RPM 230 Volts Input Package
Use as a phase converter plus get variable speed
Stock: 12
HP : 2
Manufacturer : Techtop Motor/Teco Drive
Input Voltage : 230
Input Phase : 1
Output Voltage : 230
Output Phase : 3

Weight: 50 lbs
Our Price: $270.00
Qty:
Add to CartAdd to Favorites List

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  • This variable frequency drive & three phase motor package consists of the following:
  • VFD is a 2 HP 230V Single Phase Input-230V Three Phase Output
  • Teco Westinghouse Model #: JNEV-202-H1
  • Constant Torque Sensorless Vector Drive
  • Height: 5.20
  • Width 4.65
  • Depth: 5.83
  • Weight: 5 LBS.
  • IP 20 Enclosure
  • Motor is a Techtop
  • Model #: BL3-AL-TF-56-2-B-D-2
  • Aluminum Construction
  • TEFC
  • NEMA 56 Frame
  • Shaft Diameter: .625"
  • Shaft Length: 1.88"




 
dealer's electric are good folks to work with, got my TECO from them. usually if you are doing direct drive, you want a 'C' face motor so the grinder frame bolts directly to the motor. a Lovejoy connector will allow you to connect motor to drive wheel. it is designed so your alignment does not have to be perfect. for the VFD, just put furnace filter material over vent holes and locate it 4 or 5 feet away from your platen. you dont really need to encapsulate the VFD.
i would suggest getting this http://www.ebay.com/itm/291361739352?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT or something similar(a 6x6x6 electrical box) and mount a remote on/off and speed control.
 
Congrats Rex on your package - $270 for the total package is a GREAT price. Best price I could find on the Teco VFD was $170 or more. That's why I went with the cheap Chinese VFD for $116 shipped.

Scott is right that a 56C frame motor is nice, but then you've got to have that 56C plate to mount to. KMG doesn't offer that as for as I know. Just mounting good filters over the VFD air inlets should filter out the metal dust - that's what I did on my VFD. You will need to blow the dust off as it accumulates.

Take a look at this image of a KMG grinder - is that how your grinder looks? If so, consider just removing the pulley, axle, bearings, and the plate that's bolted up to the back of grinder frame. That should allow you to sit your motor in the place vacated by the bracket and bearings. Bolt motor there, put drive wheel direct to motor shaft. If the drive wheel is same size as motor shaft, you're in luck. If drive wheel is smaller than motor shaft, no problem - just drill it out. If by chance, the drive wheel is larger than motor shaft..... hmmm, not good.


KMG_3-step.jpg

The motor will need to be lined up very good with the frame, but that's easy - slide motor so it "looks" good, then put a 2X72" belt on to final position motor, drill bolt holes in base, snug motor to position, then roll motor by hand and see how belt tracks. You can easy adjust motor to position so it tracks good by hand. Bolt tight. Then run motor at slow speed and use grinder tension adjuster to be sure tracking is where you want it. You might have to adjust motor a tad so the belt tracks straight, but it should be fairly easy. Maybe not as easy as writing "how to do", but still maybe not too bad. {g}

If need be, for fine adjustment, you could weld a nut to baseplate (it is a steel baseplate?), to screw a bolt in to press against base of motor, screwing bolt in and out would allow fine adjustment of motor to align belt.

You going to LOVE that VFD drive!!!

Ken H>
 
Remote on and off switch???

scott.livesey said:
dealer's electric are good folks to work with, got my TECO from them. usually if you are doing direct drive, you want a 'C' face motor so the grinder frame bolts directly to the motor. a Lovejoy connector will allow you to connect motor to drive wheel. it is designed so your alignment does not have to be perfect. for the VFD, just put furnace filter material over vent holes and locate it 4 or 5 feet away from your platen. you dont really need to encapsulate the VFD.
i would suggest getting this http://www.ebay.com/itm/291361739352?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT or something similar(a 6x6x6 electrical box) and mount a remote on/off and speed control.
Click to expand...


Scott,
Can you elaborate on the, "Remote on and Off Switch"? I haven't had a chance to checkout the box you suggested, but I will as quick as I get done with this post. The 'Remote Switch', GRABBED my attention! That is a very interesting suggestion, and sounds like a good way to go, for extra protection for the VFD, having it a little further away from the action! But, wouldn't it need similar protection?
Are they expensive? I'm assuming that it would or should be mounted, but most of the VFD's I've seen
were mounted directly beside the grinder...I guess, That's what you can do when you can do that with the correct protetion...
If the box you suggested is close enough to what I need with some added assurance, maybe I can work it that way.
THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! IT IS SO APPRECIATED!! REX
 
Rex - I'll hop in here for a bit of input while we're waiting for Scott's input.

The Remote ON/OFF switch is just a simple OFF 'n ON switch you can mount in a small box (6"X6"X6" metal box) like Scott linked to. I used a plastic recept box that was "re-purposed" for the job. The 6X6X6 box will be better as it's got more room to mount switches. I mounted a OFF/ON switch for the 220VAC power to VFD, a OFF/ON switch for the Forward Run position or stop function on VFD, and a 10K pot for speed control. That allows the VFD to be mounted at the very back of grinder stand (or 20 ft away across the room if desired) and have the controls mounted handy at front of grinder. I'm thinking I might use a ON/OFF/ON switch for the Forward and Reverse position as well as stop.

Since you said your Brother-in-law is a certified electrician he may have wired up plenty of VFD drives at work so he'll know all about this.

Good luck and have fun (g)

Ken H>
 
your TECO VFD should have three sets of connectors. one for line voltage in, one for three phase out, and one for control. the control set will have terminals that will allow you to wire switches for ON/OFF and Forward/Reverse and a 10k pot speed control. the VFD manual(https://www.tecowestinghouse.com/Manuals/ev_operating_manual.pdf) will show you exactly how to wire it and how to change the VFD program. another option i am going to install when i put my shop together over the next week would be an ON/OFF footswitch. one of the reasons for using a Lovejoy shaft connector is to marry a 1/2" drive shaft to a 5/8" motor shaft(or other size combinations). be sure to have a circuit breaker or fuses between the wall outlet and the VFD. the box i listed was $10. a good toggle switch $2. a 10K 2watt pot $5. circuit breaker $15. foot switch $15. enjoy!!
 
Scott, could you share why you think it would be better to use the lovejoy coupling and leave the existing shaft 'n bearings in place rather than remove them from the KMG grinder and mount the motor direct to base with drive wheel mounted direct to motor shaft? I've never mounted a motor in this manner, but it just seems to be simple and would work, but maybe there are issues with this mount I'm missing.

Thanks for your input - it's always good to get all views.

Ken H>
 
KenH said:
Scott, could you share why you think it would be better to use the lovejoy coupling and leave the existing shaft 'n bearings in place rather than remove them from the KMG grinder and mount the motor direct to base with drive wheel mounted direct to motor shaft? I've never mounted a motor in this manner, but it just seems to be simple and would work, but maybe there are issues with this mount I'm missing.

Thanks for your input - it's always good to get all views.

Ken H>
Click to expand...
Rex said his brother-in-law suggested using a lovejoy. at the office we use lovejoy connectors in many situations, definitely when you have shaft size differences. my grinder allows me to bolt the motor to the frame, IMHO the best choice for alignment. with the money saved on the motor/VFD combo, do remote switches for on/off and such. i would also look for 3" drive wheel, very useful for getting your speed down when finishing. i can change my drive wheel in less than a minute. you might want to use a 5"drive wheel pre-HT for hoggin and a 3" for finishing
 
Yep, those lovejoy type couplings are very good and routinely used to couple pumps 'n motors. "IF" bolting motor to base in position to allow motor shaft mounted drive wheel to be in position for belt, just seems the simplest method - and will be quieter/smoother than running those bearings 'n shaft. OR - it was for me anyway.

With a 4" drive wheel and the 3450RPM motor he will have a speed range with the VFD from about 300 or 400 SFPM up to about 4,000 SFPM with only a 10% overspeed. With a 3-7/8" drive wheel, the belt speed is the same as the drive wheel RPM - or VERY close anyway. At 4,000 SFPM you can really throw some sparks!!! I can imagine what 6,000 SFPM with a 36 grit (or 24?) ceramic belt would do.

Ken H>
 
KenH said:
With a 4" drive wheel and the 3450RPM motor he will have a speed range with the VFD from about 300 or 400 SFPM up to about 4,000 SFPM with only a 10% overspeed. With a 3-7/8" drive wheel, the belt speed is the same as the drive wheel RPM - or VERY close anyway. At 4,000 SFPM you can really throw some sparks!!! I can imagine what 6,000 SFPM with a 36 grit (or 24?) ceramic belt would do.

Ken H>
Click to expand...

i dont want to imagine. i am upgrading my wilmont LB1000 to a 1Hp 850rpm motor. with a 3" drive wheel at 60hz should give me a belt speed around 700fpm, 30hz would be 350fpm. it will be interesting to see what kind of finish i can get with low belt speed and wet 1000grit belts.
 
I'd just keep using pulleys, it's less efficient, but if you have enough HP, who cares?

Remote operation on the teco is easy too, it's all in the manual.

I used to use one of those myself.
 
Brian, a question here on grinders in general. You've got the most experience on design of 2X72 grinders of anyone, or so I'd expect, and you've come up with very good designs.

Would putting the motor in original location and using belts 'n pulleys run as quiet 'n smooth as a direct drive setup with the drive wheel mounted on motor shaft? The first grinder I made used the step pulley's 'n shaft setup. It worked good, but wasn't anywhere near as quiet 'n smooth as the next grinder I built with a 56C motor mounted direct drive. Perhaps the pulley setup was not aligned good or something that caused more noise, but this direct drive grinder is so much nicer - I can balance a quarter on frame running at 4,000 SFPM.... if I'm careful anyway.

I would appreciate your comments on direct drive vs belts 'n pulley for smoothness 'n quiet operation.

Ken H>
 
No, it will not run as nice and smooth.
My KMG does not, and I spent countless hours tinkering with it to make it better!
It's pretty good though, just not as good as direct drive.

FWIW, I run a VFD on my KMG, but I still use the pulley system.
And yes, I do still have a KMG, and a Hardcore, and 3 UberGrinders.

The Hardcore is the smoothest of the bunch.
 
Brian - one other question if I may. Normal direct drive is mounted to a 56C mounting plate as part of the frame - that's how I mounted my motor. What do you think (on the KMG) of removing the plates holding the bearings 'n shaft, then bolting motor to baseplate in the position to all the drive wheel mounted on motor shaft to be in correct position for belt. I know the motor base will need a VERY secure mounting so it can't slip and get out of alignment - perhaps with a stop bolt welded in position to allow screw adjusting of motor alignment.

Comments please - and comments from anyone who's actually tried this method.

Ken H
 
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