Hamon and steels

Oze

Oze

Well-Known Member
Hi I have read that not all hardening steels will produce a visible hamon? Basic carbon steels, such as 1095, 1084, 1075 will do it, with W2 producing some great hamons.

Is this the case or can you still produce a hamon on 440c stainless?

Ignorance is bliss. Usually I don't know what can't be done until I try. Ha
 
The short answer is no. However, you will see blades out there of 440C that appear to have a hamon. In cases where you see that, it's been done at the expense/sacrifice of proper heat treating. Many of the el-cheapo import knives and swords have a "painted on" hamon.

I have personally handled 440C knives who's maker(s) had clay quenched them, and they had a brilliant hamon..... but it was all for looks, because the blades simply would not cut worth a darn.
 
Ed. Why should having clay on the top of the tang stop the cutting edge of the tang (without the clay) from being hard and taking an edge?
What is the difference between a W2 and say (440c or 154CPM) when it comes to taking on a hamon and an edge?
I am a curious lad.
 
Oze said:
OK thanks Ed.
Kevin, I don't know what you mean by 'sharpies work too'?
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Lol I’m just being silly. Ed made me laugh when he mentioned “painted on hamons”. It made me think about just drawing a hamon on with a marker.
 
Most stainless alloys/steel have what is called a "target hardness". In order to achieve that hardness, a very specific time/temp cycle(s) are required. What happens with 440C when "clayed" and oil quenched is that the steel never reaches that "target hardness". It's generally much softer, and because the "target hardness" isn't achieved, it's performance as a blade is greatly mitigated.

In the modern day, using modern steels, hamons are what I refer to as a "give-n-take" situation..... often times it requires settling for a lesser performing blade in order to achieve a great hamon. Conversely, is a given steel/blade is heat treat to achieve the desired hardness, any hamon sought on the blade tends to be rather vague, or otherwise not it's best. Many things in Bladesmithing/Knifemaking are like that.....give up something, in order to achieve something. It's up to each individual maker to understand what the particular "give-n-take" aspects are for each steel they choose to use, and also to determine if getting what they want, is worth giving up something else.
 
Ed, I am back. The tempered steel of a Japanese sword, is visual evidence of the maker’s effort to produce a differentially heat-treated blade. Were they not regarded as the masters of the art and made some of the best examples of blades? If so, how can a hamon be evidence of a poor compromise?
Not being picky. Just cannot see how if it apparently was good for the Japanese for thousands of years, why a hamon could not be incorporated into an effective knife, giving softer spine and sharp cutting edge.
 
I won't speak on the Japanese or other ancient swords here but I will mention a few things that are relevant to your questions using modern known steels.

Basically, hamon formation is most easily achieved on lower alloy, shallow hardening simple carbon steels. Low manganese levels specifically play an important role in getting the most out of hamon. Other elements that aid in hardenability such as chromium can hinder hamon formation as well. That is why simple, low alloy steels work better for this.

If hamon formation is your goal, the ideal steels are (more or less in this order IMO) w2, LOW MANGANESE 1075, w1, 1095 and maybe 1084 (though 1084 usually has too much manganese to get a bunch of fine activity).

These steels, hamon formation specifically, tend to work well with simpler tools and methods and are somewhat more forgiving in heat treating with the caveat that if good hamon activity(and overall blade performance) is your main goal, good heat control is critical.

If I understood Ed's post clearly, I would disagree that achieving maximum hamon on the steels I mentioned meant that some blade performance had been sacrificed. If done correctly, the cutting edge isn't affected much (if at all) by the formation of hamon. There are plenty of blades with very active hamon by myself and some of my peers of w2, 1075, w1 and 1095 that I and many others consider high performance cutting tools.

I will add that I think hamon on knife blades, even big ones, as almost purely aesthetic and do very little to aid or hinder performance on todays blades.
 
If someone took a piece of, say, W2 and used a torch to HT just the edge, would it produce a hamon? Every time I’ve seen someone do a hamon, they used the clay... I’m just wondering if a differential HT with a torch could “possibly” produce the same effect. I’m assuming here that the person doing the HT with the torch would be able to do a near perfect job. I know in reality that this would probably be very difficult to achieve. I’m thinking more in theoretical terms here.

I would also like to ask if hamoning is possible in ovens.
 
Kevin Zito said:
If someone took a piece of, say, W2 and used a torch to HT just the edge, would it produce a hamon? Every time I’ve seen someone do a hamon, they used the clay... I’m just wondering if a differential HT with a torch could “possibly” produce the same effect. I’m assuming here that the person doing the HT with the torch would be able to do a near perfect job. I know in reality that this would probably be very difficult to achieve. I’m thinking more in theoretical terms here.

I would also like to ask if hamoning is possible in ovens.
Click to expand...

It would definitely be possible to differentially harden a blade with a torch. How much activity you'd get would depend on several factors.

And yes people use HT ovens to heat for hamon all the time.
 
Thankyou to all for your input. It seems that the more you delve into knife making the more complicated it can get if you want it to. I guess I will suck it and see. Have ordered some of the basic steels to see how it goes.
 
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