I am having difficulty justifying the purchase of a heat treat oven if I am primarily working with 10 series steels and 5160. I would really like to have as much precision and control in my heat treat as possible, but they all seem to be forgiving enough that more experience with the forge might be a better use of my time and money. Of course the reason I am using these steels to begin with is they are the easiest for the beginner to learn. My head tells me to pay my dues and become knowledgeable with the tools and steels I have. Will an oven make a significant improvement in the treatment of these steels? I want one, but honestly don't know if I need one yet.
Heat treat oven
- Thread starter Jon Kelly
- Start date
Good topic.
You're absolutely right on every count. You have'nt said how long you've been playing at bladesmithing but most hobbies or avocations have a bell curve of about 3 years, something I read somewhere. Some get bored or life throws you a curve in that time frame and redirects your attention. Why buy every gadget and tool if you're just giving aunt Tilly and uncle Joe knife shaped objects as gifts ? If you perfect one skill at a time, that is a lead-in to needing to perfect the next step and so on. Civilization survived on the educated guess of the guy at the forge for thousands of years without the benefit of high falutin tools. With that being said.....technically, yes you do need the HT oven unless you have magical powers that enable you to know how even the simplest steels should be behaving after you're done mangling them. If you're like me and I suspect many of us, you'll know exactly when you need that oven or new gadget....my time came the first time I accepted money for a KSO. Until then try and learn something without wasting your money, without any returns all these toys will put you in the poor house. Give it 3 years.
Rudy
You're absolutely right on every count. You have'nt said how long you've been playing at bladesmithing but most hobbies or avocations have a bell curve of about 3 years, something I read somewhere. Some get bored or life throws you a curve in that time frame and redirects your attention. Why buy every gadget and tool if you're just giving aunt Tilly and uncle Joe knife shaped objects as gifts ? If you perfect one skill at a time, that is a lead-in to needing to perfect the next step and so on. Civilization survived on the educated guess of the guy at the forge for thousands of years without the benefit of high falutin tools. With that being said.....technically, yes you do need the HT oven unless you have magical powers that enable you to know how even the simplest steels should be behaving after you're done mangling them. If you're like me and I suspect many of us, you'll know exactly when you need that oven or new gadget....my time came the first time I accepted money for a KSO. Until then try and learn something without wasting your money, without any returns all these toys will put you in the poor house. Give it 3 years.
Rudy
Knifemaker.ca
Dealer - Purveyor
I like Rudy's 3 year formula. Actually, I don't like it at all, but oh so true!. 
On a slightly different angle, you "need" something in response to a problem or deficiency. Is there something about your knives that isn't turning out right? Do you even know if your knives are turning out right? Is there something you want to do that your current equipment can't do?
On a slightly different angle, you "need" something in response to a problem or deficiency. Is there something about your knives that isn't turning out right? Do you even know if your knives are turning out right? Is there something you want to do that your current equipment can't do?
This is how my time breaks down for knife making. 85% reading, learning, testing. 15% producing knives. I have made two knives that passed my quality standards that I would sell to a customer. 15 were tested to destruction and filed away for reference. 3 are lying out in the woods somewhere behind the house, lol. My dilemma is simply this: Will having a heat treat oven make a significant difference in the outcome of the finished blade as compared to a carefully monitored heat treat in the forge on the 10 series and 5160 steels? It is my present understanding that 5160 could benefit from a light soak, however it is not crucial to achieving a satisfactory result. I believe this is some of the reasoning behind quenching three times, although I do not intend to follow this method. I want to make knives; great knives, not knife shaped objects. My original intent was to pursue the Hamon, however my testing revealed some weaknesses inherent to this process that would prevent me from having 100% confidence in the final product; therefore I am moving on to something a bit more structurally predictable such as 1084/5160. 5160 especially stands out to me as a good choice for fine tuning the balance between hardness and toughness.
That statement says it all and answers every point in your post.
Your perception of a "carefully monitored" program is no substitute for the real thing. Both my forges have hot spots which the only recourse is moving the blade around until "my perception" of color or a magnet tells me I'm in the "ball park". On the other hand, my HT oven has glowing little numbers on it that tell me the steel has reached a homogenous (key word) temperature conducive to acheiving the best possible results for that steel. If the above quote is true, why wouldn't your tool box contain the tools to achieving that end ? A statement like that calls for some action and at some point we've all said it whether aloud or just to ourselves.
Ultimately only you can decide when/if you'll need it. Selling knives made my decision for me....responsibility to the buyer. There's other things that keep me awake at night besides the return of a sub par blade. Good discussion and there's no animousity in anything I've said....just my 2 cents. Truth be told, I did what you're doing for a few years so I know what you're saying. I still contend to give it time unless you're too far gone like the rest of us.
Rudy
Mark Andrews
Well-Known Member
I think you answered you question for yourself as well.. Just having a heat treat oven is not going to make your knives great but it a solid platform to get predictable results more often or not.
I started with a forge with 1084 and my blades seemed to be hardened . Over the past year I have managed to get a new Evenheat oven and through Craigslist I was able to pick up a hardness tester. Now when I make a knife I know how hard it is and that gives me piece of mind. Also what I think is important and is overlooked is a good tempering oven. I use a old box kiln another Craigslist find.
Good luck .. Its a tough pill to swallow but if you get a nice kiln you should be able to sell it if the 3 year bell curve hits you !
I started with a forge with 1084 and my blades seemed to be hardened . Over the past year I have managed to get a new Evenheat oven and through Craigslist I was able to pick up a hardness tester. Now when I make a knife I know how hard it is and that gives me piece of mind. Also what I think is important and is overlooked is a good tempering oven. I use a old box kiln another Craigslist find.
Good luck .. Its a tough pill to swallow but if you get a nice kiln you should be able to sell it if the 3 year bell curve hits you !
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Rudy, your advice is excellent, I agree with all the points you made but would offer a counter viewpoint on one thought behind it. In order for bladesmith in the modern world to advance, and make the shift to maximizing the materials that we have to work with, we need to make the separation of ourselves from our ancient predecessors. Due to the vast difference in materials, the appeal to ancient success without contemporary tools often gets in the way of our advancement with modern materials. My favorite mantra that I use to embody the entire concept is “alloying changed everything”. Before the advent of intentional alloying in the early 19th century, the human eye was often all the tools you needed to get exactly what you wanted out of a simple iron/carbon alloy, but shortly after that turning point you also see the increasing use of the high falutin tools. The new alloys began to necessitate the new tools and in a circular system the new tools allowed the development if more complex alloys. I have worked with both ancient and modern alloys and they really are apples and oranges, allowing entirely different approaches. In this discussion the closest to those ancient steels are the 10XX series and they are still remarkably different. Forgive me for the one counterpoint that I offer in all of the good advice, I just feel it important that people be aware of this huge contributing factor to new approaches to heat treating in modern times.
Now forgetting all that Rudy has some good advice, and I think we need to set the solid goals before we determine what is necessary to achieve them. I am reading conflicting descriptors of the desired product, i.e. a great knife vs. a satisfactory knife. This is the heart of many unfortunate debates on this forum and others. Unless it is clearly specified otherwise, I always assume those asking for my input are looking for advice to make the best possible knife and not merely satisfactory results. To avoid making enemies instead of friends I have had to train myself on how to help folks make satisfactory knives since I am wired in such a way that I didn’t know how to aim for anything less than the best possible results.
If you cannot afford to get an oven, you cannot afford it, knives are just knives, the home and family comes first. If however I had to choose between a mammoth tusk and an oven, an excellent blade with a micarta handle is a heck of a lot better for both me and the customer. Of the two steels mentioned, the 10XX series has a better chance of giving you either a satisfactory or great knife in just a forge. 5160 could be one of the greatest examples of the placebo effect I have seen, enough people have been told of its miraculous qualities, that I honestly don’t think this borderline medium carbon steel could ever perform poorly enough for people realize it. This is too bad because it really can make a very good chopper, that could far exceed its usual performance, if it is heat treated carefully.
The fact is that without well-constructed testing approaches and well defined standards any definition of performance is too subjective to say anything is worth the extra effort. However, may I suggest another consideration altogether- control for the sake of your well-being rather than the blades. The efficiency of simply putting blades in an oven and then working on other things while the equipment does the work for you, as opposed to continually handling and working the blade up to temp in a forge, should not be dismissed out of hand. But this is minor compared to the knowledge that every blade was heated exactly the same, when it comes time to troubleshoot this variable is accounted for, blades done one at a time in the forge add countless possible deviations, ovens don’t get distracted, tired or just have bad days. But in the end, truth be told, I have seen people rave over knives that I knew the heat treat was way off on due the description the maker gave of the process and the results. So like it or not what constitutes acceptable or great will most often come down the personal standards of the maker.
Jon, a telltale sign about you to aid in my advising you is your abandonment of the hamon for not meeting your standards- this is huge! Very few in the business right now would abandon the wildly popular aesthetics of the hamon for a functional property gain, that tells me that your standards are geared toward a path that “satisfactory” will soon not be compatible with; one that I am all too familiar with. Here is where Rudy’s three year concept is a winner, so I say start saving your money for the oven, but don’t pull the trigger just yet. Learn the art of heat treating simple steels with your hands and eyes first so that when you get that oven it will be an even more powerful tool in very capable and knowledgeable hands. Without that experience advanced tools are just crutches, with it they are efficiencies that allow you to take things to the next level.
Now forgetting all that Rudy has some good advice, and I think we need to set the solid goals before we determine what is necessary to achieve them. I am reading conflicting descriptors of the desired product, i.e. a great knife vs. a satisfactory knife. This is the heart of many unfortunate debates on this forum and others. Unless it is clearly specified otherwise, I always assume those asking for my input are looking for advice to make the best possible knife and not merely satisfactory results. To avoid making enemies instead of friends I have had to train myself on how to help folks make satisfactory knives since I am wired in such a way that I didn’t know how to aim for anything less than the best possible results.
If you cannot afford to get an oven, you cannot afford it, knives are just knives, the home and family comes first. If however I had to choose between a mammoth tusk and an oven, an excellent blade with a micarta handle is a heck of a lot better for both me and the customer. Of the two steels mentioned, the 10XX series has a better chance of giving you either a satisfactory or great knife in just a forge. 5160 could be one of the greatest examples of the placebo effect I have seen, enough people have been told of its miraculous qualities, that I honestly don’t think this borderline medium carbon steel could ever perform poorly enough for people realize it. This is too bad because it really can make a very good chopper, that could far exceed its usual performance, if it is heat treated carefully.
The fact is that without well-constructed testing approaches and well defined standards any definition of performance is too subjective to say anything is worth the extra effort. However, may I suggest another consideration altogether- control for the sake of your well-being rather than the blades. The efficiency of simply putting blades in an oven and then working on other things while the equipment does the work for you, as opposed to continually handling and working the blade up to temp in a forge, should not be dismissed out of hand. But this is minor compared to the knowledge that every blade was heated exactly the same, when it comes time to troubleshoot this variable is accounted for, blades done one at a time in the forge add countless possible deviations, ovens don’t get distracted, tired or just have bad days. But in the end, truth be told, I have seen people rave over knives that I knew the heat treat was way off on due the description the maker gave of the process and the results. So like it or not what constitutes acceptable or great will most often come down the personal standards of the maker.
Jon, a telltale sign about you to aid in my advising you is your abandonment of the hamon for not meeting your standards- this is huge! Very few in the business right now would abandon the wildly popular aesthetics of the hamon for a functional property gain, that tells me that your standards are geared toward a path that “satisfactory” will soon not be compatible with; one that I am all too familiar with. Here is where Rudy’s three year concept is a winner, so I say start saving your money for the oven, but don’t pull the trigger just yet. Learn the art of heat treating simple steels with your hands and eyes first so that when you get that oven it will be an even more powerful tool in very capable and knowledgeable hands. Without that experience advanced tools are just crutches, with it they are efficiencies that allow you to take things to the next level.
Thanks to all who took the time to address my concerns, for that I am very appreciative. I will resist the temptation to fall prey to the instant gratification mentality and forgo the oven for now and carry on with my forge and a diligent testing program. It seems that results without the foundational understanding of how we got there are ultimately meaningless. I am captivated/frustrated/energized by the challenge/art/mystery of knife making.
Thanks for jumping in Kevin.....
If I'd wrote all that, you'd have to pay me by the hour. (I'm slow with one finger)
Good luck with your decisions Jon. I can still remember after 30+ years making myself dizzy with what I wanted compared to what I needed out of knife making....I calmed down after about 3 years. (joke)
Rudy
If I'd wrote all that, you'd have to pay me by the hour. (I'm slow with one finger)
Good luck with your decisions Jon. I can still remember after 30+ years making myself dizzy with what I wanted compared to what I needed out of knife making....I calmed down after about 3 years. (joke)
Rudy
Thanks Rudy. I tend to be fixated on results rather than processes sometimes. I've always been a bottom line kind of guy; no middleman, forge ahead and get 'er done, lol. One thing I have learned about knife making thus far is it is a process and it takes a lot of patience. I find it to be more of a challenge than the art of Lapidary. I struggled with that learning curve as well, but 15 years later I am practiced and knowledgeable in many aspects; although there is always more to learn, lol. I do not want to get ahead of myself, but I don't want to hold myself back either and have finally lived long enough to recognize the importance of balance in everything we choose to do; not that I succeed in finding it very often
samuraistuart
Well-Known Member
Jon, I loved your question, and the responses given as well. Kevin, he is something else. What a mind. I don't mean to muddy your waters, but I thought I would tell you what I've been thinking lately. I've been doing all heat treating in a homemade forge, 3 years in. I guess that means I'll stick with it! I didn't have the money to buy a proper oven. Still don't. However, there is another option.....building one yourself. Believe it or not, it is quite easy, as there are many plans and advice online in these forums. All that is needed is about 24 insulating fire bricks, the element wire(s), a control box, shielded wiring for the element hookup, a piece of insulating board, an electrical cord with plug, a pyrometer/thermocouple to moniter temperature, and a way to keep the bricks together, usually done with angle iron and sheet metal, but can be simpler than that. Just something to think about, as that is exactly where I am right now. While I certainly can't afford to buy one, making one would be relatively cheap. I found a place here in San Antonio that sells firebrick for $1.20 a piece! I hope this helps!
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
Jon,
You have a tool at your fingertips that will let you find a furnace that won't break the bank. A PC and the internet makes it possible to do things only dreamed of 25 years ago. If you have time and patience, you can find a small furnace that will heat to 1600 to 1800F. My first furnace is a Thermolyne 1300 lab furnace capable of 1700F. plugs in any outlet, heats to temp in 15 minutes or so, cost $175 delivered. only drawback is it's size, largest blade I can do is 7" total length, still enough for a 4" blade with a 1/2 tang. Second furnace is a Paragon E9A front door kiln. Good for 1800F and will hold a 13" total length blade. cost $250 delivered. both were used, both found on Ebay. Both furnaces are manual, I adjust the heat by the power switch. BUT, they work alot better than a gas or charcoal flame and a magnet. If you are working with 10XX or O1, 1500F seems to be the magic hardening temperature.
For some strange reason, a kiln labeled "Knife Making Furnace" is 20% more expensive than a kiln of the same size and power labeled "Glass/Mineral Clay".
scott
You have a tool at your fingertips that will let you find a furnace that won't break the bank. A PC and the internet makes it possible to do things only dreamed of 25 years ago. If you have time and patience, you can find a small furnace that will heat to 1600 to 1800F. My first furnace is a Thermolyne 1300 lab furnace capable of 1700F. plugs in any outlet, heats to temp in 15 minutes or so, cost $175 delivered. only drawback is it's size, largest blade I can do is 7" total length, still enough for a 4" blade with a 1/2 tang. Second furnace is a Paragon E9A front door kiln. Good for 1800F and will hold a 13" total length blade. cost $250 delivered. both were used, both found on Ebay. Both furnaces are manual, I adjust the heat by the power switch. BUT, they work alot better than a gas or charcoal flame and a magnet. If you are working with 10XX or O1, 1500F seems to be the magic hardening temperature.
For some strange reason, a kiln labeled "Knife Making Furnace" is 20% more expensive than a kiln of the same size and power labeled "Glass/Mineral Clay".
scott