I was wondering if anyone knows what kind of steel a john deere tractor load control shaft is made of ? I think they are 5160 but I am not sure . I just got my super cheap forge going and I have a couple dozen shafts hoarded up . So far I' ve been grinding from some old combine parts which I've been having good luck with forging too .
recycler
- Thread starter dancalvin
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Doug Lester
Well-Known Member
Dan, the manufacturer of those control shafts may not know what they are made of and, if they do, they might decline to say, that's one of the big problems with mystery metal. The only real way to be sure is to send some samples off for analysis and that sort of takes the "free" out of free steel. All you can do is perform a quench test to be sure that it has enogh carbon to harden and then play around with the heat treatment to get the right temper for your blades.
Doug Lester
Doug Lester
I read somewhere that the shaft is 5160 , and is great for forging . They are really easy for me to get , I work for J D dealership . I made a knife from a combine chopper blade . I heat treated it ,and I've been carrying it as a daily user. It holds an awesome edge
I was hoping somebody had tried the same thing I am .
Thanks
Dan
I was hoping somebody had tried the same thing I am .
Thanks
Dan
Indian George
Well-Known Member
I do believe that they are 5160. I'll have to look to see where I got them from.:3:
Steve Davis
Well-Known Member
Hope this helps.....
Doug Lester
Well-Known Member
The one thing that I would have to say about the above table is that it lists POTENTIAL types of steel which means that it is POTENTIALLY something else. Yes you may be fortuant enough to have a piece of salvaged steel that is what is listed but the only way to be sure is to send off a sample for analysis. Using mystery metal has it's risks and you will have to experiment to make sure of your heat treatment with each piece.
Doug Lester
Doug Lester
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
While that list is a nice thing, I have to say that for the most part it simply does not apply.
10-15 years ago it was fairly accurate, (I can remember a very similar list from my early days of forging) but with the massive changes industry has made in the last decade towards using the cheapest materials that will meet the required specs, much of it is misleading.
For example, these days you will find more bearings, both ball and roller that are case hardened than are made of 52100. Many other items on that list have changed year to year over the past decade too. Modern (with in the last 10 years) versions of Hammers, jackhammer bits, wrenches, all types of springs, as well as the mechanical items mentioned in that list are now often widely varied from the materials in the list.
That is part of the reason that many of us will tell folks to purchase new, known steels. The other reason is that there is very little "new" steel being made in this country now a days...most of it is "recycled", and the steel companies simply cannot control the content well enough for it to be the level of quality that it was 10-15 years ago. An example is the steel sold by Admiral, that is labeled 1075/1080. The reason it's labeled as such is because it is not "pure" enough to be labeled "1075" or "1080" indivdually, but the tolerances MIGHT fall within the upper and lower limits of the those two steel types.
This might be falling on deaf ears, but it's hard enough to obtain high quality steel these days, even purchasing it new. So why would you want to handicap yourself by not knowing exactly what steel your working with? It might seem like you saving $$, but in reality, many times your just spinning your wheels, and causing yourself grief unnecessarily.
The ONLY exception I would make is an instance where an individual KNOWS 100% exactly what steel they have in a recycled item, AND they have a large or constant supply of it. The final caveat to that is that you need to check on the material the item is made of...it may very well change from one production run to another.
10-15 years ago it was fairly accurate, (I can remember a very similar list from my early days of forging) but with the massive changes industry has made in the last decade towards using the cheapest materials that will meet the required specs, much of it is misleading.
For example, these days you will find more bearings, both ball and roller that are case hardened than are made of 52100. Many other items on that list have changed year to year over the past decade too. Modern (with in the last 10 years) versions of Hammers, jackhammer bits, wrenches, all types of springs, as well as the mechanical items mentioned in that list are now often widely varied from the materials in the list.
That is part of the reason that many of us will tell folks to purchase new, known steels. The other reason is that there is very little "new" steel being made in this country now a days...most of it is "recycled", and the steel companies simply cannot control the content well enough for it to be the level of quality that it was 10-15 years ago. An example is the steel sold by Admiral, that is labeled 1075/1080. The reason it's labeled as such is because it is not "pure" enough to be labeled "1075" or "1080" indivdually, but the tolerances MIGHT fall within the upper and lower limits of the those two steel types.
This might be falling on deaf ears, but it's hard enough to obtain high quality steel these days, even purchasing it new. So why would you want to handicap yourself by not knowing exactly what steel your working with? It might seem like you saving $$, but in reality, many times your just spinning your wheels, and causing yourself grief unnecessarily.
The ONLY exception I would make is an instance where an individual KNOWS 100% exactly what steel they have in a recycled item, AND they have a large or constant supply of it. The final caveat to that is that you need to check on the material the item is made of...it may very well change from one production run to another.
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Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
Ed do you remember our short chat at the blade show? I am glad to have guys like you to work beside in helping folks in the internet, you have many of the same passions to help people with information that I have and it shows.
There will always be a place for knives made from recycled steel, and I for one am glad for that diversity, but it is so important for people to see it all in the proper perspective. There are all kinds of legitimate reasons for making a cool blade from an old rasp or other items but saving time or money is not one of them. I just experienced it again today- I have a nasty habit of going to the scrap yard to get structural steel to make little jigs and gadgets around the shop (never my blade steel which I insist on knowing the chemistry for). By the time I had burned up two mills and a large and rather expensive drill bit on what I assumed was mild steel, I once again spent more money on that 12” chunk of “cheap” scrap than I would have on a full length of brand new 1018. I tried several times to properly soften the stuff but how can I if I don’t even know what it is? And my time is worth more than all the trial and error it could take to find the right sequence of temperatures.
Your points about the charts are all valid but I would add what I feel is the most critical and always remind people of when I see one of those numerous lists of steels used in items- those lists are often compiled by people tragically reading steel application charts backwards. In most steel catalogues and metallurgy texts there are charts similar to this when discussing different steels, and what is actually being said is that these steels have properties, according to their chemistry, that would work well for the application examples. The examples of suitable applications was never intended to be read backwards as an indicator of what steel a particular item may be made of as that is solely up to the whim of the manufacturer of that item, and the main determining factor in industry is cost, not necessarily the optimum properties. For just one example, as you pointed out, as soon as it was determined that case hardened material could do the job in bearings the cost savings over 52100 could not be ignored by manufacturers.
To be honest I don’t recall ever finding L6 in the form of any of the items commonly cited on those lists, not hammers, certainly not screwdrivers and especially saw blades. I think the saw blade thing came from totally misidentified 15n20 that happened to have nickel so people assumed it was L6.
There will always be a place for knives made from recycled steel, and I for one am glad for that diversity, but it is so important for people to see it all in the proper perspective. There are all kinds of legitimate reasons for making a cool blade from an old rasp or other items but saving time or money is not one of them. I just experienced it again today- I have a nasty habit of going to the scrap yard to get structural steel to make little jigs and gadgets around the shop (never my blade steel which I insist on knowing the chemistry for). By the time I had burned up two mills and a large and rather expensive drill bit on what I assumed was mild steel, I once again spent more money on that 12” chunk of “cheap” scrap than I would have on a full length of brand new 1018. I tried several times to properly soften the stuff but how can I if I don’t even know what it is? And my time is worth more than all the trial and error it could take to find the right sequence of temperatures.
Your points about the charts are all valid but I would add what I feel is the most critical and always remind people of when I see one of those numerous lists of steels used in items- those lists are often compiled by people tragically reading steel application charts backwards. In most steel catalogues and metallurgy texts there are charts similar to this when discussing different steels, and what is actually being said is that these steels have properties, according to their chemistry, that would work well for the application examples. The examples of suitable applications was never intended to be read backwards as an indicator of what steel a particular item may be made of as that is solely up to the whim of the manufacturer of that item, and the main determining factor in industry is cost, not necessarily the optimum properties. For just one example, as you pointed out, as soon as it was determined that case hardened material could do the job in bearings the cost savings over 52100 could not be ignored by manufacturers.
To be honest I don’t recall ever finding L6 in the form of any of the items commonly cited on those lists, not hammers, certainly not screwdrivers and especially saw blades. I think the saw blade thing came from totally misidentified 15n20 that happened to have nickel so people assumed it was L6.
StephanFowler
Well-Known Member
it's not THAT terribly expensive to get steel tested, any Fastenal can send a sample off and get it tested for you, I think it's around $30 but it's been a couple years since I had anything tested.
it's entirely probably that the steel you have is decent steel for making blades. but to get even close to the best performance out of that steel you will need to KNOW what it is.
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
(To be honest I don’t recall ever finding L6 in the form of any of the items commonly cited on those lists, not hammers, certainly not screwdrivers and especially saw blades. I think the saw blade thing came from totally misidentified 15n20 that happened to have nickel so people assumed it was L6. ) ??? .............................................. I have 2 huge circular saw blades made from L-6 , (I had them tested ) of course they were old blades without any carbide inserts . usually 15n20 is a swedish product and L-6 was generally made here is US. I still have some brand new (old) saw steel marked L-6 .
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
The majority of blades assumed to be L6 are band saw blades which are often 15n20 if they are a nickel bearing alloy, or the cheapest alloy that can be differentially hardened by induction. Obviously circular blades not having added inserts are another beast from yesteryear. A chemical analysis is the best way to go rather than a list of what "should" be in a scrap item, but having an analysis say "L6", that would be in the interpretation, an actual analysis should give you the range of chemical elements present, it is then up to a person to guess at what the numbers mean. Normally this within a grouping for the settings of that particular spectrometer so that the average yard sorting gun that many use will normally only read a narrow set of heavy metals, other elements like carbon content are in another part the spectrum and thus you need ever more sophisticated and expensive units to get clearer pictures. I have bought my share of secondary market steel that I thought was the alloy I wanted from the chemical array I was given only to find it to be unhardenable because the "spectrometer" was actually a yard gun that didn't read carbon, or too many assumptions were made in interpreting the numbers read by the test. As I often say, and it bears repeating, the machines and gadgets that do any test just to what they do there is no right or wrong to it, in the end it all comes down to how we interpret the data. There is actually a lot of confusion about what a spectrograph can read among knifemakers, as I mentioned all it can do is spit out numbers about the elements present, but often see people confuse this with other tests such as X-ray diffraction or metallography which can reveal things abouts structures and phases within the steel, I realize that is not the case here, but it goes to show how misunderstood a simple chemistry list can be.
One would indeed have to have go to fairly old items to find American made L6. Where steel is made was a factor perhaps half a century ago but for a while now it has been a completely international market, just like everything else (when was the last time you opened the hood of any automobile and not seen parts from every corner of the globe?). The two major L6 suppliers, Carpenter and Crucible had been importing it from overseas for some time, I have sheets of origin on the batches I bought from and much of it was made in Europe not too far from where the U.S. was getting its 15n20.
One would indeed have to have go to fairly old items to find American made L6. Where steel is made was a factor perhaps half a century ago but for a while now it has been a completely international market, just like everything else (when was the last time you opened the hood of any automobile and not seen parts from every corner of the globe?). The two major L6 suppliers, Carpenter and Crucible had been importing it from overseas for some time, I have sheets of origin on the batches I bought from and much of it was made in Europe not too far from where the U.S. was getting its 15n20.
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
Hello Kevin how are you . These blades are 80 -90 years old . One is actually marked L-6 It seems like we dont mfg hardly anything anymore except cars, (and a lot of knives) and like you said previously most of them are made in mexico or Canada especially trucks . My toyota tundra is made in Long beach calif. whereas my wives ford is made in canada . (One would indeed have to have go to fairly old items to find American made L6. Where steel is made was a factor perhaps half a century ago but for a while now it has been a completely international market, just like everything else (when was the last time you opened the hood of any automobile and not seen parts from every corner of the globe?). these were tested by Cerro metals in St Louis by chemical analysis. an proved to be some old L-6. regards Bubba
Kevin R. Cashen
Super Moderator
For sure, back in the late 80's early 90's I had a little "Chevy" truck, and during a conversation about "American pride" and supporting our country, a fellow pointed out how I was good and bought American. I took him over and popped the hood and asked him to read a single Japanese pictograph character that was everywhere under the hood of my "American" truck. I told him I support America in every way I can but I'm not a self deluding fool about it. These days, when Hummers are from China, VW's are from South America and Toyotas are made in the U.S. we need to realize that isolationist economic views are not possible even if we wanted to leave the rest of the world to its own idiocy, we are an integral part of it all whether we like it or not. But nothing saddens me more than the U.S. total abandonment of the steel industry.
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
Our steel forges (commercial) are antiquated , I mean you can still make good steel here no doubt , but its so much easier to order from Japan or sweden , germany who have in the last 20 years completely rebuilt all thier old foundries , and outfitted them with computer controlled rotary forges , I dont even think the US has one ? If this country ever expects to come out of this depression we need to start making things . Your sadness is shared by a lot of folks. Thats why I always respect Bladesmiths and knifemakers !! they make things....
bubba-san
Well-Known Member
sounds good to me see you there, I dont plan on setting up booth but, I will bring some goodies ....... Bubba