Squaring die question

billyO

Well-Known Member
Hello all. Now that I have squaring dies, and am starting to learn how to use them, I'm wondering if there is any limit to the number of pieces that is practical to weld up. After my first pizza cutter failure, I'd like to try again, and I have a 60 layer bar already forged out into a 3/4" square bar, and am thinking that maybe this would look good:
Untitled.jpg
Thanks and have a good day
 
Are you talking about the image being the initial "stack"? If so, there's way more there to go wrong, then I would take a stab at trying to do.

Typically, the fewer the layers, and the more of them that run in the same orientation, the less likely you are to have issues. You're biggest potential problem with that being an initial "stack", is the middle stack/square.....there's little to no way for any debris, flux, etc. to get in or out. Very high probability of inclusions and/or cold shuts. You also have to realize/understand, that squaring dies are best used for ONLY the initial welding.....as the squaring dies themselves become a mechanism that traps flux, debris, etc. IN a billet. Typically, after the in initial weld, I will go to my air hammer, with drawing dies....which is a much faster method of drawing out then my press. The press comes into play at the end, and is used with flat dies and stop blocks to finish truing up the billet.

Typically what I would do is to weld ONE of those squares, or more to the way I do it...... I would make each of those stacks/squares, it's own billet..... weld them all up as individuals, draw them to the same size, then grind all four sides, cut, and make as many 4-ways as you choose. Then you're only actually welding up 4 bars, cutting your chances of failures dramatically, versus trying to weld us 60+ layers that are in different orientations...then draw it out as long as possible down to whatever sized square you wish.

Personally, I usually go with 1" or 1 1/4" square, grind off all four sides, then cut it into 4 equal length pieces. Sand and etch the ends of each piece, and then orient them as desired into a 4-way..... sorta of like 4 squares making up the lower left corner of your image. Weld those, then draw and size...... for either a finished piece, or into another 4-way, or even 9-way. I rarely go more than a 9-way of pre-welded bars, simply because it more often then not, ends in a failure. On occasions I have been know to do a 16-way billet....but that is reserved for "loaves".....that I take slices off to make something smaller, such as folder blades or scales.
IMO, the worst self handicapping a person can try to do when creating Mosaics, are to try to do it all at once (like trying to weld the entire image/stack above).....which generally ends in some type of failure. Rather, think of creating Mosaics as "One more manipulation"..... meaning one more 4-way, or one more 9-way.

Hope that's helpful!
 
Just logged on and saw this. Thanks for the reply, Ed, and perhaps I need to clarify a few things: I already have the 3/4" bar that's 60 layers so this would only be 9 pieces (3x3), and I also do most of my welding without flux, clean surfaces and reducing atmosphere is all that's needed, especially with a press (does kerosene count as flux?) And I wish I still had access to a power hammer, because I sometimes go too far with the press (see: https://knifedogs.com/threads/pizza-wheel-axle.52092/post-416989

I'll be honest, I had to re-read both your reply and my initial post before it dawned on me that you were thinking that I'm thinking of starting with individual pieces of 1080/15N20. (sorry for not making that clearer). I don't think I would have ever thought of that, my first question would be how to keep all those oriented while tacking them up.
You did answer my main question when you said:
I rarely go more than a 9-way of pre-welded bar
One more question I have for you, is there an ideal size ratio of billet to dies for setting the welds (ie 2 1/4" billet for 2" dies or 2 1/2" billet for 2" dies, etc?) I try to do 2 setting welds before starting to draw out the billet. The dies I made are ~2" square, and I also have a 3/8" spacer so that I also have 1 5/8" square.

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
 
Thanks for clarifying! And, I'm sorry if I tried to go too deep. :)

When it comes to die size and initial welds, I always go 1" SMALLER on the die, then the billet. For example, let's say I stack up 4, 1 1/4" square pieces.... that gives me a 2 1/2" square. I would use 1 1/2" squaring dies. With Orange Crush, (because of it's high tonnage) I just have to be cautious to not press too much.....otherwise it "pinches" the corners, and makes bad things happen with the pattern(s). The main reason I go that way, is because early on in my career, when I had my first press, I hard broke my press because I used dies that were too small for the billet, and jammed the dies together...breaking the lower die holder. Took 3 full days to repair that mistake, and I don't wanna make it again. ;)
 
Thank you for the response, Ed. I can now go forward with some confidence and that I'm not re-inventing the wheel, so to speak.
 
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