Steel prices.

[jmforge]

Okay, you can call me old and crotchety even though I never had to walk more than a half mile to school and it was not uphill and there was rarely if ever snow. But answer me this. When did plain carbon "music wire" or "bandsaw" steel like 1080/84 and 15N20 like we use to make damascus start costing up to $12 a pound? I haven't had to buy any for a long time because I bought a bunch of steel from Aldo, Don Hanson and Crucible over 10-15 years ago, but DANG!!!! I need some 15N20 and I checked with one dealer. It can now take in excess of $100 worth of steel to put together a 1.5 x 3 x 6 inch stack like I have historically used!!!!! I looked up the old 2014 Kelly Cupples price sheet (only one you can find on the interwebz) and the stuff was like $5.50 a pound for thin rolled 1080 and $7 for 15N20. back in the old days, experienced knife makers used to tell you that steel price was not really much of a factor when estimating your cost of making knives. Well, obviously that went out the window when these PM super steels came along. But now, the very "cheap" steels that they were talking about are no longer all that cheap. It doesn
t help that you are likely to get LESS for an identical forged knife than you could have gotten say in the late 1990's unless you are very well known on the Faceinstastawebz.

 

[KenH]

You are correct - with the price of steel, and the propane used for forging (not including labor) a Damascus blade will cost almost as much as some of the really "high dollar" steels on the market these days.

Cost today compared to cost back in the '80s is much like shrimp here on the Gulf Coast. Back in the '70s 'n '80s fuel was 50¢ /gal and shrimp sold for $5/lb, now fuel is 6 times as much and shrimp sell for only 2 times as much.

 

[jmforge]

You are correct - with the price of steel, and the propane used for forging (not including labor) a Damascus blade will cost almost as much as some of the really "high dollar" steels on the market these days.

Cost today compared to cost back in the '80s is much like shrimp here on the Gulf Coast. Back in the '70s 'n '80s fuel was 50¢ /gal and shrimp sold for $5/lb, now fuel is 6 times as much and shrimp sell for only 2 times as much.

I went to the Guild show in Orlando in 1991 or 1992. I bought a small 1084 fighter with a maple burl handle and stainless fitting with tte simple Kenny Rowe slide sheath from Joe Flournoy for $375. He had just gotten his MS stamp, but this was a leftover and didn't even have a JS stamp. The next cheapest knife was a sslightly larger version with the JS stamp. It was liek $450-475. More than I had. So how much do you think that someone could get for that same type of "unstamped" knife today? Could you get $375 from a stranger at a show who had never heard of you? Over the last 25 years, the popularity of knife MAKING, at least for forged fixed blades has far outstripped the popularity of knife BUYING IMO. It seems that the ABS might have been a tad TOO successful in their objective of preserving the forged blade. Forged In Fire just made it worse. As for damascus and labor, go back to the late 70's and early 80's and see what the pioneers like Bill Moran or Bill Bagwell were charging extra per blade INCH for that old style random pattern stuff..

 

[Gliden07]

A lot of it is still being blamed on Covid and supply line issues! It's become an excuse for everything (and I'm not saying Covid didn't kill anyone etc...). Gas is high its Covid, Steel price high supply issues because of Covid! You can thank the Government for closing down a lot of the smaller Maw n Paw operations during Covid and handing that business over to big box stores and the Amazon's of the world! Anyone that had a business prior to Covid and manged to keep it afloat for the last 2 years has my respect!

 

[tmr]

I went to the blade show in the early 80,s when it was in knoxville tennessee.......you would only see damascus knives on the odd table like bill moran etc.......what a long way we have come.......at the same time there were people getting thousands of dollars for beautiful carved decoys.......now nobody wants a carved duck anymore because they were mass produced overseas and sold cheap......now you can buy damascus knives made in pakistan on amazon and ebay for $30 to $40 and i think it is having the same result......i think the damascus we are making today is much better quality but because of the massive supply of cheap knock offs is hard to extract fair value.....there are exceptions to the rule of course but if you go to the blade show today without having name recoginition you are not going to sell very many knives at any price

 

[mike miller]

Check with Ray Kirk for 15n20.

 

[Jesse Latham]

Jerrod Todd sells 15n20.

 

[jmforge]

I went to the blade show in the early 80,s when it was in knoxville tennessee.......you would only see damascus knives on the odd table like bill moran etc.......what a long way we have come.......at the same time there were people getting thousands of dollars for beautiful carved decoys.......now nobody wants a carved duck anymore because they were mass produced overseas and sold cheap......now you can buy damascus knives made in pakistan on amazon and ebay for $30 to $40 and i think it is having the same result......i think the damascus we are making today is much better quality but because of the massive supply of cheap knock offs is hard to extract fair value.....there are exceptions to the rule of course but if you go to the blade show today without having name recoginition you are not going to sell very many knives at any price

You are right about the crap from Pakistan, etc. IMO, The minimum standard for damascus is something like Alabama Damascus. It may not be the best, but at least Brad stands behind his product and will make you whole if a piece you buy is not up to snuff. But it is cheap compared to the old days even before factoring in inflation. The Ebay/Amazon stuff is "painted" damascus and made from old car bumpers and cat food cans. But, many people think it is great just like they think that the $19 Rachael Ray knife set they got at Target is the best stuff they have ever seen.

 

[Doug Lester]

Yes, and I remember buying gasoline for 29 cents a gallon and my mother complaining that she once could have filled a large shopping cart for $25. Go back to the Civil War era and a laborer could work for 30 cents a day and a private soldier's pay of $13 and month {$10 for black troops} was a lot of money.

Doug

 

[bladegrinder]

I remember making $3.25 a hour, cigarettes were .50 a pack, now their $7.00 or something like that.
The cost of things is usually kind of relevant to the economy but like it was mentioned this covid stuff is wide and far reaching and has all kinds of bad effects all down the pipeline.
I also thought that Pakistan Damascus was made from car bumpers and manhole covers, I guess cat food cans add a new element to the mix

 

[jmforge]

I remember making $3.25 a hour, cigarettes were .50 a pack, now their $7.00 or something like that.
The cost of things is usually kind of relevant to the economy but like it was mentioned this covid stuff is wide and far reaching and has all kinds of bad effects all down the pipeline.
I also thought that Pakistan Damascus was made from car bumpers and manhole covers, I guess cat food cans add a new element to the mix

The steel prices increase may also have roots in the Trump trade war. IIRC, accusations of "dumping" by India, China, etc were bandied about. But the Deflation in handmade knife prices is an oversupply issue.

 

[jmforge]

Check with Ray Kirk for 15n20.

Ray just has the three sizes of 52100. He finally ran out of that good 5160 round and the 3/4 52100. If you have a way to break down the 1.75 inch round bar, it is like $3.90 a pound. He also has the small stuff at .531 and 10mm/.40. That may all be surplus. I think he said that the .531 stuff was found at a mill in north Georgia a number of years back.