Testing a knife

Alden Cole

Well-Known Member
I messed up a knife I had been making so decided to mess around with it and see how it would perform. It is made of 1080 steel (canola, *400, and in an oven) and hollow ground on a 10 in. wheel. I did the normal things you would do, like cutting paper, whittling wood, prying the tip into wood, whacking on antler, and finally a brass test. It worked very well through the whole thing. I then snapped the tip off and here are a few pictures (maybe not so good) of the grain. Since it passed the brass test I would think that would mean that it would have good grain structure, but if anyone can see anything in these I would be grateful if you could tell me what. Here are the high tech pics. Thank you! knife 11.JPGknife 12.JPGknife 10.JPGknife14.JPGknife 13.JPG
 
Yes, the pictures are not very good, but they were the best I could get. So how big should the grains be? I'm guessing 80 grit would be much to large if that makes sense. Is a good grain size about 400 grit? Thank you, and I apologize for the lousy pics.
 
About the best way I've found to check grain size is to find an old file (or drill bit) that's high carbon, break it and look at the grain size and compare the two. You'll see the grain really isn't visible to the naked eye, more like a "grayish" look. Naw, if you can "see" the grain much at all it's too large
 
I was thinking the exact same as Kevin..... looks horrible on the top images, but not so bad on the bottom. It's ALWAYS tough to make an assessment of anything when it comes to knives and pictures/photos.

That being said, you mentioned it passed the brass rod test...... that is one of the test I depend heavily on when I'm working up and new steel....it's certainly not the know all, end all test, but if you understand it, it can provide a lot of info on which direction, if any, to go from there. ;)
 
Did you see the edge deflect on the brass along the whole length of the knife? I wonder if the tip may have just heated up a little more than the rest of the blade. Try breaking it about half way down and comparing grain size as well.
 
Yes it would deflect, and then spring back, and it worked like this along the whole blade. I'm wondering if my pics are just bad? The knife was heat treated in my new evenheat oven, so I would think that the steel would have been the same temp throughout. I did notice two larger grains. Would this be the result of my not having normalized this blade? Thanks guys I really appreciate all the answers!
 
The steel came from Kelly Cupples. I didn't normalize, anneal, or forge the blade. I stuck it into the oven and programmed it to go to 1480. I let it soak for a couple minutes and then pulled it out and quenched it in canola. You are the expert Mr. Cashen, if you say it is overheated, it is overheated, I just don't see how I could have done that unless 1480 is too hot. Thanks again.
 
The steel came from Kelly Cupples. I didn't normalize, anneal, or forge the blade. I stuck it into the oven and programmed it to go to 1480. I let it soak for a couple minutes and then pulled it out and quenched it in canola. You are the expert Mr. Cashen, if you say it is overheated, it is overheated, I just don't see how I could have done that unless 1480 is too hot. Thanks again.

When is the last time you checked the accuracy of you oven temps? May be the problem. Might not.
 
I may be wrong, but my guess is your heat treat process should not have caused the large grain, it may have been that way when you received it. Even if steel is advertised as ready to heat treat, I always normalize and thermal cycle every knife I make from carbon steel. I would rather be safe than sorry.

If you have more of this steel, you could test my theory by heat treating one piece as is alongside another piece that you have normalized and thermal cycled. Break both pieces and compare them.
 
The oven is brand new from evenheat so I would hope and guess that it is not off. From now on I'll be thermal cycling and normalizing. Thanks!
 
The oven is brand new from evenheat so I would hope and guess that it is not off. From now on I'll be thermal cycling and normalizing. Thanks!

Unfortunately that's not a safe assumption. There have been numerous threads on other forums recently about bad steel and weird results and the topic of checking oven temps came up and many makers are finding out their ovens are off by quite a bit, some reports are temps over shooting by 60-80 degrees.

Evenheats ,I believe, are quality products and seem consistent (even if consistently off the mark) so once you know if it's off, you can adjust for it.

The success of our craft is HUGELY dependent on accurate temperature. I can't imagine spending the money for an oven and not verifying the accuracy. Do yourself a favor and check your oven.
 
The steel came from Kelly Cupples. I didn't normalize, anneal, or forge the blade. I stuck it into the oven and programmed it to go to 1480. I let it soak for a couple minutes and then pulled it out and quenched it in canola. You are the expert Mr. Cashen, if you say it is overheated, it is overheated, I just don't see how I could have done that unless 1480 is too hot. Thanks again.

Alden, I really appreciate your confidence in me, but rather than an expert, just think of me as a person who has made a lot more mistakes than most. But along with those mistakes I also have a built-in, obsessive, need to verify and question all results or explanations. This is why I encourage people to never take my word for gospel but always question things and verify for themselves. The greatest compliment I can receive is "Kevin, I thought you were full of it, so I tested it and found out you were right" in that way I have done people a greater service than being just another internet expert; the internet already has a surplus of "experts."

Having said all that, I would strongly suggest that you look to your heating equipment, and time. One of the great misunderstanding about grain size on simple steels is that it is somehow some sort of permanent or persistent problem, when it is actually one of the quickest and easiest issues to fix. On every heat through non-magnetic (Ac1 for those who will want precise terms) the steel will recrystallize, this gives you the opportunity to entirely reset that grain size in a single heat. This can be affected, somewhat, by the previous grain size if it was absolutely, out of control, huge. The new grain network will form within the boundaries of the previous grain boundaries. So, an ASTM grain size of 1 or 2 (huge) could result in a size 6 on reheat, requiring another cycle to get it back to 8 or 9, but this is an extreme situation to say the least. By far the most likely explanation of a grain condition such as this is the result of the last heat on the steel.

1480°F is not too high for 1080, but it is on the high side of the necessary range, and could allow the grain to grow a little if held for too long. Try 1425°F to 1450°F, keeping in mind that soak times are not really necessary for 10XX series steels, and the closer you get to 1500°F, the more likely you will get a grain size bump by holding longer than necessary.

Another motto that I have tried to live by is that any smart person will learn from their own mistakes, but a wise person learns from other peoples mistakes, this is the only thing that will allow you to learn more than one lifetime worth of lessons. I have the benefit of having bladesmiths, and other industries, from around the world coming to me with their problems, and so I have seen a lot of odd things. I did have one situation with a steel that was sent to me for testing, that was fairly unique in the gran size discussion. It was an odd batch of 1075, in another country, that could not have its grain size refined. My lab work showed that there was some sort of contamination or segregation at the grain boundaries that left a permanent framework of ASTM size 6 to 7 boundaries that all efforts to cycle down only created finer grains within this network but the steel when broken, would fracture at the flawed larger network boundaries. This gave the unchangeable appearance of large fractured grains, but any efforts to refine the size could only be detected with special metallography to reveal the sub-grains. I only relay this information to stress how rare something like this would be and that 99% of the time the answer is to check and calibrate your heat source.

Edited to add- I have found that the most important heat equipment to check and calibrate is one that is brand new. There are too many unknown variables in an oven that has just arrived at your shop and has not been made "part of the family" yet. I have several brands of ovens and controllers in my shop and every one of them needed calibration and careful setup for my way of doing things. The only ones that I trust are the ones that have been maintained by me for years, and I trust them because I double check them on every firing. Come to my shop in a heat treat day and you will see cords and wires everywhere as every heat source will have three different pyrometers double checking each other.
 
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I stuck it into the oven and programmed it to go to 1480. I let it soak for a couple minutes and then pulled it out and quenched it in canola.

Next time let the oven get up to temperature and stabilize before putting the knife blank in. There is no benefit in letting the knife sit in the austenizing range for any longer than it needs to for the manufacturer's soak requirements. To the best of my knowledge 1080 does not require an extended soak.

Also even the best heat treat ovens only measure temperature at one point in the oven (where the thermocouple is located). It is certainly possible that localized overheating can exist during the warm up process as the chamber gets up to temperature. The thinnest crossection will be most sensitive to this intermittent overheating as well.
 
Thank you for the detailed and helpful responses! Kevin, the internet has a surplus of experts for sure, but I don't think all of them hold as high of a reputation as you and many of the guys on this forum do. What would be the best way to go about checking temperature on an oven?
 
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