Brine question

Here is some info on hamon patterns. I tend to go for Hitatsura and Tobiyaki, but I have tried for the Choji, but haven't come close to getting it right. I end up with more of a Gunomi. I always have to look the names up when people reference them. I can never keep them straight in my head. In modern steels this is about esthetics, not performance anyway, so we are just playing. :1:

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/hamonpatterns.html
 
Is that the finished blade and final etch?

Not sure what I'm going to do with this one. Might just leave it unfinished. I accidentally put in a bit of a distal taper on the one side while I was grinding off the furnace cement and tried to even it out when I was doing the bevels but obviously it didn't come out too well. I also thought I had ground it nice and flat on the platen (no surface grinder here) but after I test polished the blade last night with a compound (that leaves behind a layer of silicone which makes it almost water repellent) it doesn't look too good. I think this one was the last of the four that I heat treated in one batch so maybe that is why there is some pitting on the bevel. I have seven knives left here in W2 and then I think I am done with carbon steels. I'm just getting into this and this part of the game is for seasoned vets I'm thinking.

Hamonpolished2_zps2c9b0439.jpg


Hamonpolished1_zps39c1aea3.jpg
 
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Don't give up man! The fun is just starting. :)

The reason I asked, is there might be more activity hiding in there if you hand sanded the blade and etched it again. I was just curious.

I second what Kevin said about the furnace cement. I have both furnace cement and satanite and I much prefer the furnace cement.
 
I agree, don't give up. I posted a brief tutorial in the Hammond hamon thread that describes my process, and you will find yours. Its a great first effort. Put a handle on it, and put it in the knife drawer in the kitchen, or in the tool box. If you want to fix it up, you need to get out the sandpaper, and sand lengthwise to at least 600g, preferably 1000g or better, then etch. There should be no vertical grind marks left.

Here is my post:

Here's what I do. Its what works for me, and you will find what works for you may be different, as it is for each smith.

I rough grind the knife. I get the edge to about 0.040", and have the blade evenly sanded to 120g. The clay doesn't pop off too early for me when I stay at 120g. It was hit or miss when sanded at 400g. Clean all oil, wax, fingerprints before applying clay. Make sure there are no rough edges or gouges, especially around the plunges/ricasso. Make sure there are no leftover scratches from the 60 or 36g belts. They may rear their head during the etch. Some people coat the entire blade with a wash of clay. That doesn't work with me for the brand I use. Try it with and without to see for yourself which you prefer. You don't need a lot of clay, max 1/8" at the thickest.

I let the clay set while I bring the oven up to temp. I use 1460f for W2 and 1095, 1465 for 15N20, and 1440for Hitachi White. I have only done two blades in 1075, and am still experimenting. I found 1450 too cool, and 1475 a bit on the warm side. My next one will be 1460. As a note, the 1075 blades are 1/4" thick, compared to the much thinner kitchen knives. This will affect soak and quench times. I use Maxim DT-48, which is similar to parks 50. In the kitchen blades, I use very thin clay, and I quench 2 seconds, out for three, in for three, out for 5 then finish the quench. I find this really enhances the drama in the ashi. Its safer to use a slightly thicker clay and just quench, but the drama is more subdued. The top kitchen knife in my previous post was done this way. It gives a mix of clay and time/temp activity, with extra cloudy action. You can do the same thing without a commercial oil, by using brine for the first quench to beat the pearlite nose, then subsequent dips in heated canola oil. You will risk a cracked blade every so often, but its mostly safe, maybe...

As the steel gets thicker, it gets a bit easier as a wedge cross section will try to naturally form a hamon. You will need to adjust the heat, amount of clay, and time in and out of quench to get the desired effect.

After tempering. I go back to 120g on the grinder, and clean everything up, then go to structured abrasives in u200, u100, u65, then u45. (approx 150, 220, 320, 400g) I can see the hamon clearly as soon as I get through the decarb in steels that do a hamon well. The 15N20 shows between 220 and 400g, depending on something I haven't quite figured out. The finer you hand sand, the more detail that will come out. The kitchen knives were only sanded to 1000g, as they are users. The finer you go in the kitchen, the more you have problems with food stiction.

I do the first etch in heated white vinegar, about a 15 min soak, then neutralize with windex. Polish with the powdered abrasives mixed with water to a toothpaste consistency. Clean then etch with a makeup pad and heated lemon juice. Focus on the fully hard parts of the blade. Oh, I forgot, put a few drops of dishsoap in the vinegar and lemon juice, it acts as a surfactant. Repeat until you are happy, or are worried you are losing your mind. If you don't have powdered abrasives, you can use rubbing compound from the auto store.

Don't get too obsessed. Its definitely a process that either wows you, or makes you want to quit.

There are some pics of the hamons I get in the process in that thread. I'm no expert, but I can get some pretty effects as I learn. http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?39428-I-wanta-make-a-Hamon-because-my-name-is-Hammond/page2
 
Not sure what I'm going to do with this one. Might just leave it unfinished. I accidentally put in a bit of a distal taper on the one side while I was grinding off the furnace cement and tried to even it out when I was doing the bevels but obviously it didn't come out too well. I also thought I had ground it nice and flat on the platen (no surface grinder here) but after I test polished the blade last night with a compound (that leaves behind a layer of silicone which makes it almost water repellent) it doesn't look too good. I think this one was the last of the four that I heat treated in one batch so maybe that is why there is some pitting on the bevel. I have seven knives left here in W2 and then I think I am done with carbon steels. I'm just getting into this and this part of the game is for seasoned vets I'm thinking.

Hamonpolished2_zps2c9b0439.jpg


Hamonpolished1_zps39c1aea3.jpg

It looks like you might have some decarb still on the flats. It would work a lot better sanded by hand than off the grinder. There is a lot more activity in there than you see right now. I can guarantee that. The placement of the line is pretty dams good for such an early attempt. Way to go!
 
Did a few more. One I left in the vinegar way too long and you can actually feel the transition on the steel. I definitely won't do that again.

IMG_20150107_200923_zpsbfa4d2e9.jpg


I ground another couple (one last night and one today) and etched them both. Not like the last one. I think the cement may have been a little too low on these ones.

IMG_20150108_212645_zps65a6b0bd.jpg


IMG_20150108_212530_zpscd844902.jpg
 
Did a few more. One I left in the vinegar way too long and you can actually feel the transition on the steel. I definitely won't do that again.

It also happened to me once... it was almost like the acid had eaten deeply into the hamon line!!! Since then i only rub the acid (remember the dishsoap drops) on the degreased blade with a cotton swab for short time, then remove the oxides, degrease and repeat.
 
I disagree - that looks like where it SHOULD be. All too often I see hamon that's way up on the knife, and traditionally it should be much closer to the edge...

Check out the activity you have in there!!! Get polishing, man! Think of all the awesomeness still hidden in that!!!!

^^^This absolutely. My exact thoughts on all of it.
 
Last night I heat treated a knife by preheating the oven to 1460, putting the knife in and once it came back to 1460 I gave it a 10 minute soak and quenched it. The blade cracked.

IMG_20150109_214051_zps32982e37.jpg


Tonight I heat treated another one and put it in the oven cold and heated the two together with a 10 minute soak. I made a video of the quench. Sorry about the poor camera work but I was focused on the knife.

[video=youtube;VzUemJ0lvAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzUemJ0lvAg[/video]
 
Having one blade go into a pre-heated oven and cracking upon quenching and then having another blade being heated with the oven and quenching without quenching probably only means that you placed a blade into a pre-heated oven and hand it crack and you put a blade into the oven and let them heat together and didn't have it crack. There are too many things that can contribute to the blade cracking to isolate a cause with just two experiments.

Doug
 
I have two knives left to heat treat from this batch. Only had one crack when I changed my method. I will stay with the old method for the next two and see what the results are.

Weightreduction_zpsfcad7066.jpg
 
The old method worked for one but not for both of the last two. Unfortunately the last one that cracked I was making specifically for a buddy of mine. The commonality these two knives share is that they had the thickest cement and both cracked after the cement fell off into the water. I'm guessing there was too much heat retained and the blade edge was too cool when the cement fell off. It didn't happen immediately, but approx 1-2 seconds after the cement fell off. I don't think the change in the heat treat process was to blame, but using too much cement was. I used a ultra fine sharpie to mark the cracks for the pic. Hopefully I can still make something out of them.

Twocrackedblades_zpsc2f86f44.jpg
 
from the video it seems you are keeping the blades too much time in the brine.
Once surpassed the pearlite nose, keeping the blade into water for as much as i see in the video is only asking for trouble. The blade should be out of the quench at 400°F and slowly, evenly descend to room temperature in still air, then temper.
3-4 seconds max in the water, followed by warm oil quench is a procedure a little safer...when out from the oil the blade should be still whispy smoking, not wet in oil without smoke, not smoking too much...that should be around 400°F....then cool in still air to room temperature and temper.
 
The variable I would look at is the length of time in the brine. If you can measure the temp of the brine, then keep that variable the same for each quench, you will learn the max time in the brine. On a smaller blade like these, a couple seconds is probably enough, and if you find cracking at 4 seconds, don't go any longer than 3.99 seconds. :biggrin:

The he cracks happen in the second half of the quench, and using heated canola oil is usually slow enough to prevent that much of a shock to the steel as the phases shift. You are learning a lot here. Great thread!
 
LOL. Thanks. I'm learning that I think I like stainless better. I heat treated two small EDC prototypes in AEB-L and plate quenched them. Way easier and no drama. I'll go back to W2 eventually, but I think I need to hone my skills a little first.
 
LOL. Thanks. I'm learning that I think I like stainless better. I heat treated two small EDC prototypes in AEB-L and plate quenched them. Way easier and no drama. I'll go back to W2 eventually, but I think I need to hone my skills a little first.

iu
 
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