Budgets and priorities

The world is wide open for a reasonable priced VSD like the grizzly 2x72. I can't imagine the market for it and why no one has filled the need. I wish I had the intelligents to bring to market and profit from. You could easily have a 400 foot long yacht and be drinking umbrellas drinks.
 
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You said the wheels on your 4X36 are plastic? Mine are metal. My 4X36 was made in the 80's, though.

The design is pretty generic. You can probably buy replacement wheels that aren't plastic.
"Industrial nylon" is what I used to remember it being jokes about as. They should drive a belt well enough, just not a good option as a contact wheel I suppose.
 
So why does it have to be 2x72? What about 2x48? I am seeing these from time to time...
My best guess: back in the early days of the resurgence of artisan knife making in the latter 60s, the available grinders that became popular used an industry standard 2x72” belt. 2x108 was another option. Regardless, those early machines like Wilton Squarewheel, Burr King, Bader, etc, were used in industry and adopted by knifemakers.
As time went on, and knifemakers settled into 2x72, more belts became available in a greater variety than the other belt sizes.
So, it became a standard that you always hear first. Likewise, more accessories became available for the 2x72s and eventually knifemaker-specific machines followed.
Will a 2x48 work? Sure, and way better than a non-knife-oriented machine. Check and verify a full spread of belts before you go for a 2x48” machine. They’re probably out there somewhere nowadays.
I saw a Russian maker show a 2x48 type knifemaker grinder a couple weeks back, so they’re out there. Neat, compact grinder.
 
Oh, I have a thought!

Some belt sizes have more variety of abrasive selection than others. Extreme example here, but 2X72 has a lot more options that a 54X103 wide sanding belt since wide-belt sanders are usually used for sanding wood. Careful whatcha pick.

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economics as well. belts are priced very similarly, so if you’re paying $4 for a 48 inch belt and $4.25 for a 72 inch belt then you will save a lot of money by using 72 inch belts.

belt selection has gotten way better for 2x42 etc in the last several years. But I don’t see those machines offering a wide array of contact wheels, small wheels, etc.
 
Did you look at the Coote?
I did, and for a simple machine it may be a good choice to copy, but it still looks like a grand to buy. Like all limited verticals this industry seems to have some fixed pricing that remains high. Granted, no one is getting rich selling belt grinders, but it seems like there is a sweet spot price right in that $1000 range. Unfortunately I am not ready to spend that.

The Coote design is kind of cool in that it is a drive wheel, an idler wheel and a chassis. Reminds me of the bench grinder to belt grinder conversions. However, it seems that the only difference between the 48 and 72 is ~12" of steel. It would seem that with a telescoping design, something could be made that would be able to use either size belt, or pretty much any length as long as it could be telescoped far enough.

I do like the 3 and 4 wheel designs because they seem to have a tighter footprint. The vertical footprint of the 2 wheel design quickly becomes a horizontal depth issue when shifting things around to access the contact wheel.

It seems that there are a few things necessary:
The ability to access a platen and table, for nice square grinds.
The ability to access a slack belt for convex grinds.
The ability to access a contact wheel for concave grinds.

I can do the platen and table thing on the 4x36. It is essentially the same amount of belt just distributed across the width rather than length. When I figure out the platen length, and the table design I will have this ability. Now that I have 2 different motors for it in place I can do both fast and slow. Unfortunately, I am not confident that the plastic wheels in this machine would tolerate being used as contact wheels at least for steel, probably still okay for wood and other handle materials. But we'll see. I can look into re-manufacturing the wheels, or replacing them, or not.

Drum/spindle sanders come to mind when I think of concave grinds. I already have an oscillating spindle sander, which provides me access to those shapes, but these would use sleeves as opposed to belts giving me far less surface area to work with. In addition to that I have other rubber drums that can be run in the drill press, or even on the lathe (in a drill chuck) and in theory, I can make up with spray adhesive and PVC pipe and some wooden end caps as long of a drum as my lathe will allow. So, in theory, if that concavity is required, I can have a lot of it. I just haven't figured out what I am going to need it for yet.

As for slacking, I can still use the 1x30's and especially turned 45° and flipped around. Granted, it is about 1/4 the belt realestate of the 2x72 but it certainly moves an abrasive belt in continuous motion across some materials.

There is another belt sander in my arsenal. It is the hand-held one, that would run just as happily clamped upside down in a vise. Depending on the wheel make-up it may provide small (2" or maybe 2-1/2") contact wheel support. Not sure, haven't messed with it to see.

And there is always the angle grinder with disks, and flapwheels and so on.

I am pretty sure that if I had nothing and had to start from scratch the decision to grab the 2x72 or 2x48 would be a no-brainer. I am however, not in that position. I have certain things, and some of them will either have to become specialized, or more generalized.

In the end, there are "tasks" that need to be accomplished. Many of these tasks are solved by purpose built machines such as the 2x72 grinders. However, most if not all, can be accomplished some other way. Once I understand the tasks, I can come up with a way to solve them with what I have, or a slight modification to what I have. Certain things will be critical and precision such as right angles, and other specific angles. Other things perhaps not-so-much.

Right now, I just need to start understanding the processes necessary, and worry less about which tool someone is using to accomplish it. Certainly, I still don't have a milling machine, and for some reason the last 3 tutorials I have watched seem to feel it quite necessary to mill the inside of the liners... And, a cheap mill... that comes in right around the cost of a cheap 2x72 :)
 
economics as well. belts are priced very similarly, so if you’re paying $4 for a 48 inch belt and $4.25 for a 72 inch belt then you will save a lot of money by using 72 inch belts.

belt selection has gotten way better for 2x42 etc in the last several years. But I don’t see those machines offering a wide array of contact wheels, small wheels, etc.
I guess I need to understand better what is provided, and available and so forth. And what each thing is good for. Do I necessarily need a contact wheel from 1/2" all the way up to 12"? Do I need a 20" span of slack belt? Do I need 12" span of platen? As a beginner, I need a fuller understanding on each task, and how to do it, with or without a 2x72.
 
Only you can make that decision - other folks can tell you their experiences. The whole thing depends on how long you think you'll stay in knifemaking. 10 yrs ago I went down the same path you're on now. I got a 1X30, after a couple of knives, I got a HF 6X48 and used that a while. Then bit the bullet and spend $300 or so to build a 3 speed 2X72" grinder. After a couple yrs with that thinking "Who needs a VSD, I've got 3 speeds", I bit the bullet again and spent $500 or so to build a VSD 2X72 and WOW! What a difference. Not only smoother, but the having speeds from 300 SFPM to 5,000 SFPM really makes a difference.

The one thing to remember, the money you spend on a 2X72 (or other decent equip) isn't "thrown away" - if (when) you decided you no longer want it, you can recoup most (if not all) of your money selling it. Almost like an investment - not at all like buying a car that depreciates in value from the moment you drive it off the lot.

Later
 
I guess I need to understand better what is provided, and available and so forth. And what each thing is good for. Do I necessarily need a contact wheel from 1/2" all the way up to 12"? Do I need a 20" span of slack belt? Do I need 12" span of platen? As a beginner, I need a fuller understanding on each task, and how to do it, with or without a 2x72.
A very common grinder setup to cover most tasks would be:

A flat platen

an adjustable work rest, or the ability to angle the platen

8in or 10in contact wheel

Small wheels in 1/2”, 3/4”, 1-1/2” (this all depends on you)


Ceramic belts:
60, 120

AO belts:

220, 320/400, 600

handy specialty belts:
trizact (gator) in varuous grits
 
John's got a good list there, BUT, do realize you can "grow into" those things. All you need to start is the 2X72 with flat platen. The flat platen can be anything from 8" to 12", whatever happens. Since I build most of my equip I could have most any "reasonable" length platen. I started with an 8", and now run a 10". Either works just fine, but the extra 2" comes in handy sometimes.

Actually, all you really "need" is a couple files and your side grinder (is it the 4"? Or "?)
 
Bradley, I had a section in my last post but took it out.

It recommended that you don't worry about all this equipment right now, make a few knives, and seek solutions amongst your current tools, difficult or not. Find out if you actually want to do this. The facility with which you can accomplish your tasks will tell you what doesn't work moving forward, or which tools you really want to upgrade.
There will be plenty of opportunities to spend money you haven't even dreamt of yet, like a rise-and-fall indicator.
And, if you want improved, then I recommend saving until you can get the right stuff and don't throw excessive money away trying to find less expensive alternatives.

That's just my take, and it is surely nothing more than my opinion and advice. 2cents worth even less in today's world.
My most important advice is to do and see if you enjoy what you're doing.
 
Bradley, I had a section in my last post but took it out.

It recommended that you don't worry about all this equipment right now, make a few knives, and seek solutions amongst your current tools, difficult or not. Find out if you actually want to do this. The facility with which you can accomplish your tasks will tell you what doesn't work moving forward, or which tools you really want to upgrade.
There will be plenty of opportunities to spend money you haven't even dreamt of yet, like a rise-and-fall indicator.
also sound advice.
 
John's got a good list there, BUT, do realize you can "grow into" those things. All you need to start is the 2X72 with flat platen. The flat platen can be anything from 8" to 12", whatever happens. Since I build most of my equip I could have most any "reasonable" length platen. I started with an 8", and now run a 10". Either works just fine, but the extra 2" comes in handy sometimes.

Actually, all you really "need" is a couple files and your side grinder (is it the 4"? Or "?)
Oh, absolutely. I guess that I understood the question to be "what am I really shooting for, here?" to understand what the end game looks like for most people and why the 2x72 is so ubiquitous. That's why I listed the belts. Are those belts available for a 2x42? a 4x36? Can you adapt the grinder you have to take small wheels or a contact wheel?

I mentioned the David Boye book some time ago. He used a blowtorch and bench grinders with stone wheels for years. I don't know why more people don't use bench grinders starting out. I started out with a 1x30. A good, used industrial bench grinder that takes 10" wheels would have been a massive step up for grinding bevels. Then draw file the bevels flat and smooth.

Draw filing is a technique that deserves tons more love than it gets. But something motorized to hog off the needless steel will save you countless hours.
 
Oh, absolutely. I guess that I understood the question to be "what am I really shooting for, here?" to understand what the end game looks like for most people and why the 2x72 is so ubiquitous. That's why I listed the belts. Are those belts available for a 2x42? a 4x36? Can you adapt the grinder you have to take small wheels or a contact wheel?

I mentioned the David Boye book some time ago. He used a blowtorch and bench grinders with stone wheels for years. I don't know why more people don't use bench grinders starting out. I started out with a 1x30. A good, used industrial bench grinder that takes 10" wheels would have been a massive step up for grinding bevels. Then draw file the bevels flat and smooth.

Draw filing is a technique that deserves tons more love than it gets. But something motorized to hog off the needless steel will save you countless hours.
So I had a good session tonight. I only used the 1x30 but I finally got some belts in. I absolutely love 40grit zirconia!!

I ground 7 blades, 6 springs, and 6 pairs of liners. The 1x30 definitely needs a different table, the gaps and those grooves are quite dangerous and a little infuriating. The platen was acceptable, but I only used it for the steel, when I did the liners I pinned them together and so I had to freehand them because they had pins sticking out. But even slack that zirconia belt does some serious metal movement. Still have to figure out what to do with the bolsters. I have patterns for 3 of them cut out and ready to cut 2 in NS and 1 in brass. But I have 2 more patterns that need some bolsters and only 1 that won't.

This is fun, most people probably don't start out making 6 all at the same time though....:)
 
So I had a good session tonight. I only used the 1x30 but I finally got some belts in. I absolutely love 40grit zirconia!!

I ground 7 blades, 6 springs, and 6 pairs of liners. The 1x30 definitely needs a different table, the gaps and those grooves are quite dangerous and a little infuriating. The platen was acceptable, but I only used it for the steel, when I did the liners I pinned them together and so I had to freehand them because they had pins sticking out. But even slack that zirconia belt does some serious metal movement. Still have to figure out what to do with the bolsters. I have patterns for 3 of them cut out and ready to cut 2 in NS and 1 in brass. But I have 2 more patterns that need some bolsters and only 1 that won't.

This is fun, most people probably don't start out making 6 all at the same time though....:)
LOL I was a little confused when you mentioned the table... I haven't had a table on my 1" grinder since I got it. I forgot they had one.

If you like the 40 grit, you aught to see what a 36 grit ceramic belt does on a 2X72.

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LOL I was a little confused when you mentioned the table... I haven't had a table on my 1" grinder since I got it. I forgot they had one.

If you like the 40 grit, you aught to see what a 36 grit ceramic belt does on a 2X72.

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I think I will be better off not using a 2x72 and not know what I am missing. I will be getting a few belts soon though so I can try making at least a rudimentary one.

I tried to share the photo but the forum says it is too big, let's see if I can do it roundabout instead...


 
I think I will be better off not using a 2x72 and not know what I am missing. I will be getting a few belts soon though so I can try making at least a rudimentary one.

I tried to share the photo but the forum says it is too big, let's see if I can do it roundabout instead...


46c37e2aa78c3e2de98f4fb6788cfc7d01ceb77c.jpg
 
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