Continuing problems with FIF

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One Armed

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Hello my friends. Not like it hasn’t been discussed before, but now with the new season they just keep making the same mistakes! Look, I’m as entertained as the next by the show. And while I do not watch it religiously, I flip it on every now & then. Couple problems I have always had with the program. The contestants are not graded fairly. Case in point... When one person gets W2, and the other gets 5160, its simply not a fair testing medium. The show has never illustrated that steels are simply NOT created equal! The emphasis of the show(and very misleading & incorrect it is, is that it’s the ‘Smith who imparts the ability of the steel. Of course it’s through the craftsman’s “magical” forging ability that the steel becomes what it is, no matter WHAT they might start with. And I really think it has lead to people getting into it who love picking up junk steel on the side of the road and thinking they are forging some dynamic blade of Unobtanium! I’m sorry, but....NO!!!! This just isn’t reality.

Now, I have to say of course, be cause I know even here there are some who have been mislead, and believe this garbage! I’m not attacking knifesmithing as a whole. I love it. I wish I could do it. Honestly....but just making knives AT ALL with one arm/hand is tough enough, I think! That said, here in the really real world, I truly High Performance Knives are made with high alloy steels by way of stock removal and/or machining(CNC)...., NOT by way of simple carbon steels via forging. Even if I could forge, I would still mainly do stock removal. This is because of the steels I use. Those are CPM3V & CPM20CV EXCLUSIVLY! While 3V has been forged(on a very, very small scale) for the most part if you were to heat and pound on either of these steels, they would simply LAUGH at you while saying, “I’m aint MOVIN’!”
 
I watch the show. It is entertaining which is the purpose. It's not always clear to me if they know what steel they are using or what is in their quench barrel. Unless they are salvaging steel from a car or something like that, they are usually all given the same steel to work with. Even if it was different steel, one could overcome the difference with a little knowledge about that steel and changing blade geometry and heat treat to suit. I'm not crazy about the effect the show has had on the general population but I know it has been good for suppliers of knifemaking products.

I certainly don't agree with the statement that truly high performance knives are made with high alloy (super) steels. No steel is better than another at every applocation. Each has a purpose. Every carbide forming alloying element that you add for wear resistance also has a downside. Like harder to sharpen or won't take a super fine edge because of the large carbides, or reduced toughness. If you're happy using 3V and 20CV then that is great, but I don't think we should declare that it is superior to O1 or other simpler steels. The point is, there are good and bad things about every steel and whether it's high performance for the end customer or not depends on what he intends to use it for.
 
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Well, the main purpose of FiF is to be entertaining - and to make the best knife possible - under the conditions set forth in show - and being forged is one of the BIG conditions. Gotta forge. Remember, if they made the show so we'd all approve - they wouldn't have a show with the extremely small audience us knifemakers could provide.

Now, with that all said, there are a few places I think they could REALLY improve and the general audience would like it even better. At the entrance of each contestant, showcase some of their work so the audience can see some of their work. Next, at least mention in each show the REQUIRED tempering takes place at night between takes of show.
 
KenH said:
Well, the main purpose of FiF is to be entertaining - and to make the best knife possible - under the conditions set forth in show - and being forged is one of the BIG conditions. Gotta forge. Remember, if they made the show so we'd all approve - they wouldn't have a show with the extremely small audience us knifemakers could provide.

Now, with that all said, there are a few places I think they could REALLY improve and the general audience would like it even better. At the entrance of each contestant, showcase some of their work so the audience can see some of their work. Next, at least mention in each show the REQUIRED tempering takes place at night between takes of show.
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I agree but truthfully I dont think the average person watching the show would care. The reason many people watch "Reality Shows" is for the insanity!!

As far as doing just stock removal, by doing that you limit yourself to singular steels. No Demascus, no San Mai these are very beautiful FORGED billets made from singular steels paired together. Plus its FUN to try/do. I understand you have a limitation (for lack of better words) and that's understandable. To do what you do is a testament to your tenacity and is just awesome! Plus doing the forging makes you a better rounded Bladesmith. I love to forge but stink at it. But I keep trying. One of these days I'll get it right! But I'll keep doing both!! Just do what you like. FiF is entertainment that's all take it for what worth. Certainly better than the Halmark movie of the week!
 
Well, FIF is a TV show and they are in the business of gathering ratings and selling ads.
They are not there to demonstrate bladesmithing in its purest form or teach the general public how to forge blades.
I heard J. W. Randall speak about this and he mentioned that they filmed everything he did in his shop for 4.5 days and boiled it down to just 3.5 minutes on the show! They were looking for the more dramatic shots, nothing instructive.
It's obvious that the work done on the set is not their best work. I do agree with KenH that it would be nice to see a bit more about the individual smiths and their work, but maybe that wouldn't be appealing to the larger general public as much as to those of us in here.
As for tempering, that drove me nuts the first few seasons but I noticed that during the last season they began to mention that the blades had been tempered prior to the second round.
I watch it, as many of my friends do, and I find it highly entertaining.
As long as you realize what they are doing it's fine.
On the up side, it has gotten a number of people interested in bladesmithing.
I always try to convince them not to try and forge their first blade out of fishhooks or hubcaps. :)
 
I love the show! But, I hate it when they all get different steels! Yeah, it's entertainment, but it's also a competition and I think they should get the same steel. Two other things that drive me crazy are having the guys on a coal forge outside in bright light and allowing blades to be welded back together after they've been broken! Arrrgghhh!
 
Valid points. And to clarify, I’m not saying the program should SWITCH to stock removal! Not at all. It wouldn’t be nearly as entertaining. No, my point is how the odds are stacked against the individuals. The contestants should all be using the SAME material! Having one contestant use a W2 ball bearing, another stuck with CANASTER DAMASCUS and yet another using a 5160 leaf spring, is clearly stacking the odds against/in favor. These are NOT a set of margins for fair competition. And people at home have no clue. Obviously the odds in that scenario favor the leaf spring. But to the lay, it’s that Smith’s knowledge that gave them the edge.

The one thing I do like is how it has brought to light the misconception that one must be an 80 year old Japanese man to be able to forge a decent blade. That is to say, age and time spent is the only factor for skill in the craft. Then Travis Wuertz appeared and blew away everyone WITH EASE! It demonstrated a younger guy with natural skill can do this. And do it well! Even when it’s not his main focus. So they have opened a door or two. Just wish they would start the competition on an even playing field. Stacking the odds limits showcasing the skill of the smith.

And for those who think forged knives made with simple carbon steels can stand up against high alloy/high speed CPM steels, that’s fine. You are absolutely entitled to how you feel. I was WRONG once to! :p
 
One Armed said:
And for those who think forged knives made with simple carbon steels can stand up against high alloy/high speed CPM steels, that’s fine. You are absolutely entitled to how you feel. I was WRONG once to! :p
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I have no experience with CPM steels so I cannot give an educated opinion there. As for me and my opinion I will put the majority of my faith in the maker and his/her knowledge, training and experience rather that in an alloy of any shape or form. I will take Kevin Cashen’s 1084 blade over James “I dont know what I am doing but I bought CPM steel” Smith’s blade everytime and twice on Sunday. Just my opinion on the importance of steel alloy versus maker skill. Now, all of those factors being equal, maybe you are correct but I do not have the knowledge to confirm or deny that point so I shall remain silent there. Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
 
Thank you for that Chris. I have to say, that is quite a bit of a statement for “Staying Silent”. LOL, j/k.

I’ll simply back up my point with a piece of fact, and leave it be. Taking Blade Sports as one example, which imho is the pinnacle of all aspects to a blades performance. Looking at all serious competitors & champions over the last several years, every single one has used a blade made with either CPM-M4, or another high alloy/high speed steel. A Cashen 1084 blade, though masterfully forges, could in NO WAY seriously compete in top level competition. If they could, that is what would be used. To argue that point is simply not moot.

But I digress. My focus in this was FIF and ways they should keep the competition on an even keel. Please continue though. I am aware that no matter what praise I give to the beauty & craftsmanship of forged blades using simple carbons and forge welded laminate, there will undoubtably be those who take offense and must rush to the seeming aid of their beloved craft. Even when no offense was intended. My point of this will be revealed in coming posts. I’ll leave it at that.
 
One Armed said:
And for those who think forged knives made with simple carbon steels can stand up against high alloy/high speed CPM steels, that’s fine. You are absolutely entitled to how you feel. I was WRONG once to! :p
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This type of comment is not really relevant to the thread.......that YOU started. This is probably better suited for a separate thread, but we all know where that would probably lead.

Dogmatic blanket statements like this seldom, if ever, have a valid place in any subject, knives included.

No one knife or steel excels at everything. A maker choosing to forge or make stock removal blades from simple carbon steels is no less valid than another's choices to use 'super steels'.

I seldom see 'educated' makers saying simple carbon steels are better than super steels at everything. On the contrary, I see otherwise 'educated' proponents of super steels belittle and berate other steels (and makers) fairly regularly. Steel snobbery at its finest.
 
Chris Railey said:
I have no experience with CPM steels so I cannot give an educated opinion there. As for me and my opinion I will put the majority of my faith in the maker and his/her knowledge, training and experience rather that in an alloy of any shape or form. I will take Kevin Cashen’s 1084 blade over James “I dont know what I am doing but I bought CPM steel” Smith’s blade everytime and twice on Sunday. Just my opinion on the importance of steel alloy versus maker skill. Now, all of those factors being equal, maybe you are correct but I do not have the knowledge to confirm or deny that point so I shall remain silent there. Better to be silent and thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
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I think you missed the point of my post. I know your opinion and you are entitled to it for sure but my point was that the maker is more important than the steel. I am sure you are not implying that CPM is so wonderful that even an improperly made CPM blade is the finest that can be produced. That is all I was saying. If I did not know better (and you know I mean this respectfully because we have communicated previously) I would think you enjoy ruffling feathers with your CPM statements.
 
One Armed said:
Thank you for that Chris. I have to say, that is quite a bit of a statement for “Staying Silent”. LOL, j/k.

I’ll simply back up my point with a piece of fact, and leave it be. Taking Blade Sports as one example, which imho is the pinnacle of all aspects to a blades performance. Looking at all serious competitors & champions over the last several years, every single one has used a blade made with either CPM-M4, or another high alloy/high speed steel. A Cashen 1084 blade, though masterfully forges, could in NO WAY seriously compete in top level competition. If they could, that is what would be used. To argue that point is simply not moot.
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I don’t have any experience with cpm steels other then some research I’ve done but I will say this, not everyone wants a blade for blade sports (as an example.) some just just want a razor sharp knife that can be sharpened easy for dressing game 1084 does the job and it does it very well.
 
No, I understood you Chris. And yes, I do remember. I was being light hearted with you, hence the “LOL” and “j/k”:) Really not trying to “rough” feathers. Just being matter of fact. A statement of FACT should, should not be an area of contention. TRUTH doesn’t care about our feelings. My statement on Blade-sports is absolute FACT! And pretty overwhelming evidence to my point. So I’m not trying to instigate an argument. I’m simply stating a point with very strong evidence. The person who gets angry and states the opposite is the one making the argument, with little to no evidence at that. Note: let me clarify one thing. I say CPM steels, but what I mean is the host of modern high alloys of Powder Metallurgy.

So I’m sorry if it “roughs feathers” of some. But a person’s “feelings” don’t dictate truth! I.E, there are men and women. One is not a woman simply because one “feels” like they are, and vice versa!
 
One Armed said:
No, I understood you Chris. And yes, I do remember. I was being light hearted with you, hence the “LOL” and “j/k”:) Really not trying to “rough” feathers. Just being matter of fact. A statement of FACT should, should not be an area of contention. TRUTH doesn’t care about our feelings. My statement on Blade-sports is absolute FACT! And pretty overwhelming evidence to my point. So I’m not trying to instigate an argument. I’m simply stating a point with very strong evidence. The person who gets angry and states the opposite is the one making the argument, with little to no evidence at that.

So I’m sorry if it “roughs feathers” of some. But a person’s “feelings” don’t dictate truth! I.E, there are men and women. One is not a woman simply because one “feels” like they are, and vice versa!
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Why don't you start a separate thread on how vastly superior super steels are (particularly the ones you happen to use) in bladesports and every other aspect and stop derailing your own thread?
 
I'm not sure what your point is here. In your original post you have a paragraph talking about how it's unfair when they give someone 3 different steels on FIF. I agree with you to an extent. But it's also a challenge that an educated maker can overcome using blade geometry and heat treat to his advantage. And 5160 is not clearly the winner there. It depends on the tests they are going to perform. I feel like you're not understanding that different things are better at different applications.

Then your second paragraph is you proclaiming your steel selection to be superior to everyone elses. lol.
 
One Armed said:
My statement on Blade-sports is absolute FACT! And pretty overwhelming evidence to my point.
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Do not take anything I say to indicate I am angry at you or your opinion I am more curious about the origin of the opinion. But I believe you have answered that based on your bladesports comment. I have many friends who think Ford is superior because they use them in NASCAR so I get it.
 
Chris Railey said:
I have many friends who think Ford is superior because they use them in NASCAR so I get it.
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Boy does that ring bells!!!

If we're going to bring up a gripe about FiF how about the testing? Hammering a knife thru a nail? Chopping a brick and expecting the blade to hold up?

Self Made Knives said:
allowing blades to be welded back together after they've been broken! Arrrgghhh!
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I beg to differ - a properly welded blade that is ground so the weld doesn't show and still passes all the tests - what's wrong with that? To pass the welding test more years ago than I like to remember the simple test was to weld to bars together, grind them smooth, then bend 180° and have no cracks to pass. Bracket welders in electrical crew didn't have to pass the x-ray test as did the pipe welders.

I've got a dagger style knife that got a broke blade from me using it as a throwing knife. While in my mid to late teens I welded it back together and used that knife for years as a throwing knife and blade held just fine. Don't sell a properly welded blade short.
 
Chris Railey said:
Do not take anything I say to indicate I am angry at you or your opinion I am more curious about the origin of the opinion. But I believe you have answered that based on your bladesports comment. I have many friends who think Ford is superior because they use them in NASCAR so I get it.
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Oh I didn’t think you were angry. And I get what you are saying my friend. It’s the “noisy FEW” that I was directing to. Some simply can’t accept a different opinion, and feel the need to lash out. I only generalize for their small thinking. I try to talk directly only to those who I know won’t attack me for my views. As I am talking to you now Chris. ;):)
 
One Armed said:
Some simply can’t accept a different opinion, and feel the need to lash out.
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Interesting that you would say that considering that is exactly what you are doing.

I'm assuming I'm one of the "noisy few" considering you haven't responded to anything I've said. Notice I haven't mentioned stock removal or forging or my own steel selection. I've just been stating some basic principles of steel selection. Something to think about.
 
I suspect his was never about FIF. It seems like it was a platform for his steel snob agenda. Anyone can search his forum posts and find this same common thread in short order.
 
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