define it

F

forginhill

Member
Hello, fellow knife nuts.

I'm a hobbyist, not very prolific (got a large family with LOTS of kids), but I love the craft. I have a question to ask, and it is not meant to be trollish at all. Why do many of the knives posted on a "Neo Tribal Forum" have very little that's "tribal" about them? Aren't there many many other forums more suited for the posting of such work?

I know that some of us hesitate to define "neo-tribal," even the guys who are most closely associated with the "movement." But definitions are necessary. Without definitions you don't have a dictionary, or an English language, or a Constitution, or a country. You have gray playdough. You have modern "art." You have the noise some call music today. Etc.

I love the "neo-tribal" style. Most of us here do. So why can't we have a truly dedicated "neo-tribal" forum? Will some people get offended? Undoubtedly. But that shouldn't stop us. Doesn't Wayne Goddard attempt some sort of definition in his fifty dollar knife book? I'll bet if we went up to ten people (reasonable people) and asked them, "How would you describe a neo-tribal style knife?" we would get some consistency in the answers.

Maybe knifemakers are afraid that if the definition is stated, it will be so narrow that it will scare people away. I don't think that will happen. I think the opposite will happen and truly neo-tribal style work will blossom.

Anyway, just some thoughts from a little dude who loves neo-tribal stuff. (I spent the first 18 years of my life with tribal people in the Amazon rainforest. They still hunted with bows and arrows. It was awesome!)
 
Tai Goo and Tim Lively have made some comments recently ( in the last year) regarding this issue. DO a search for those threads and you may find your answer. Since the movement started with them their words will express it better than anyone else.
 
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Hey Todd is that you?... been making any knives?

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give us some examples?

I think the best thing is just to let it define itself. In other words, take what it means to you,... make some knives with your neo-tribal mindset and post the pix here. I think the diversity is great and shows that we are much more than just another genre. It also shows that we are still growing and evolving,... which is way better than stagnation.

I suppose the word "tribal" could mean different things to different people, but as defined it pertains to a type of social cultural group, and is not synonymous with "primitive". It also has no aesthetic implications in and of itself. It's really more about the people,... those who feel they have this "thing" in common. It is synonymous with, "ancestral", "familial" and "affiliated". It is also associated with "old" and "past", but when you put that together with "neo" it takes on a different meaning and is paradoxical.

par·a·dox noun \ˈper-ə-ˌdäks, ˈpa-rə-\

: something (such as a situation) that is made up of two opposite things and that seems impossible but is actually true or possible.

"Anything that can be put into a nut shell should remain there." Shantaram
 
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Thanks, Don.

I read both of those threads before writing my post.

Tai, I've just made a few, wish it could be more. Thanks for asking.

Here are a few dictionary definitions, though maybe not the best ones.

tribal |ˈtrībəl|
adjective
of or characteristic of a tribe or tribes : tribal people in Malaysia.

tribe |trīb|
noun
1 a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader : indigenous Indian tribes | a local division of an aboriginal people.

The words that come up in these definitions that I have always associated with tribal are "traditional," "culture," "aboriginal," and "indigenous."

Since the first half of my life was spent with "primitive," "tribal" people, I have a pretty strong idea of what tribal means. But maybe my definition is too private. Either that or maybe the definition of "tribal" has changed, just like other words have changed and evolved.

When I think of tribal, I think of the opposite of "modern," "technological," and "artificial." I think rather of "cultural roots," "organic," "natural," "handmade" and "aboriginal."

I can go onto any knife forum and find countless knives that look the same because they're made the same way, with the same materials, the same machining tools, in the same style...."Neo-tribal" knives should be different and look different. When you go onto a forum called "Neo-tribal," you expect something different, something unique. To me the common style is what’s "stagnant."

However, if by "Neo-tribal," one just means a particular group of people who have come together on a forum to share their work, then I understand. I just had a different definition, a different expectation, one I need set straight. Hence this inquiry. However, if that is true, why call it "Neo-tribal." The prefix "Neo" implies a resurrection of something old, something traditional, something that has disappeared and is worth bringing back. Would it be more accurate just to use the word "Tribal"?

Thanks!
 
... don't you love these discussions? :)

They've been going on a long time and do get frustrating sometimes. But hey! It gives us something to talk about...

Next year it will be 20 years old. Let's try and keep it fresh and relevant to the world we live in. I think that is one of few responsibilities "contemporary" artists have.

I didn't foresee many of the twists and turns it's taken and it took me a while to get used to it, but I can see how it all fits one way or the other.

"Tribal" is a type of inner social/cultural structure, rather than the outward appearance of the things "primitive" tribes did. It is not necessarily an aesthetic genre, anachronism or a term intended to be used for a level of technological advancement. Modern "tribes" still exist. They are everywhere.

I think for us, on the internet, it's really just being part of a group that share a few things in common. In essence, it can't be tribal, if there isn't a group. It's about community.
 
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There's really nothing wrong with the way you look at it, as long as it leaves room for folks who interpret it a bit different. It's good to hear from you and you are surely welcome as part of this group.

One thing I was thinking about when we first got started was,... how power tools, technology and one man shops have taken something special away from the social/cultural aspects of the art/craft. It's a lot different working with a group, than working alone.

A neo-tribal pass around knife might be fun,... as long as I get to keep it when it's done. I'll supply a bar of steel and send it to Todd, then he can send the blade to whoever's next.

Now let's see some knives. :)
 
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Thanks, Tai.

Didn't exactly clear things up for me, but I can at least understand how you define it––"a group that share a few things in common." I guess every knife forum is really a "Neo-tribal" group. And I shouldn't expect something particularly unique from the label.

Forge on!
 
I've always liked this definition;

"French sociologist Michel Maffesoli was perhaps the first to use the term neotribalism in a scholarly context.
Maffesoli predicted that as the culture and institutions of modernism declined, societies would embrace nostalgia
and look to the organizational principles of the distant past for guidance, and that therefore the post-modern era would be the era of neotribalism."
 
I think the "post modern" model works in some ways, but we live in a time where everything from primitive to high tech is going on simultaneously and not necessarily hand in hand. We are living in different times, that’s for sure… “post contemporary”? It always struck me funny how “contemporary art” started off as meaning, art made in the present time, to becoming an aesthetic genre. Now there’s a “contemporary look“, which has just become another niche. The culture we live in is very mixed and diverse. Everything is going on all at once. The time lines overlap and converge at points, and then go their separate ways.

I think there is also a big push right now to have “modern folk and tribal arts”, (made by living artists), accepted as being “contemporary“,… which they are. Practitioners don't seem to want the label of "primitive" or "backwards". They want respect. They do things different than their ancestors and have departed from strict tradition. They innovate! They are influenced by modern western culture, but also hold dear the teachings and wisdom of their ancestors. They want to be accepted by the modern mainstream, but don't want to lose their cultural identities.

With so much going on in the world today, it can be hard to find one's own identity in it and/or way through it. It's a great journey though. :)
 
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I think it makes a lot better sense to look at neo-tribal as a branch of post modernism, than as primitive or aboriginal.

However, I think we have been very sympathetic and opened to quasi-primitive, pseudo-aboriginal, semi-anachronistic, recreational and survivalistic approaches to the work. Those things have been incorporated into neo-tribal smithing to some degree along with Contemporary American Frontier.

I think this makes us very unique. :)
 
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Tai, I can see how your definition of “Neo-tribal” is very postmodern.

Here is a definition of postmodernism that I found online (granted, there are other definitions, but this one seems to summarize it well, and specifically addresses art):

Postmodernism, like modernism, follows most of these same ideas, rejecting boundaries between high and low forms of art, rejecting rigid genre distinctions, emphasizing pastiche, parody, bricolage, irony, and playfulness. Postmodern art (and thought) favors reflexivity and self-consciousness, fragmentation and discontinuity (especially in narrative structures), ambiguity, simultaneity, and an emphasis on the destructured, decentered, dehumanized subject.

Many of the ideas you shared can be found in that definition:

There's really nothing wrong with the way you look at it, as long as it leaves room for folks who interpret it a bit different.

...Mixed and diverse. Everything is going on all at once. The time lines overlap and converge at points, and then go their separate ways...

With so much going on in the world today, it can be hard to find one's own identity in it and/or way through it.

I think it makes a lot better sense to look at neo-tribal as a branch of post modernism, than as primitive or aboriginal.

However, I think we have been very sympathetic and opened to quasi-primitive, pseudo-aboriginal, semi-anachronistic, recreational and survivalistic approaches to the work. Those things have been incorporated into neo-tribal smithing to some degree along with Contemporary American Frontier.

I guess my hangup is that I am anti-postmodern, even anti-modern. I subscribe to a very pre-modern philosophy of life. Life does have a clear and distinct purpose and meaning. Moral and spiritual truth are as absolute as the laws of physics and chemistry. Things like art do have boundaries and rules. Postmodernism shies away from any rules or definitions. If all of society (and I'm generalizing to make a point) wants to call a stack of bricks “art” (Andre), or a toilet “art” (Duchamp, Kooning), I guess I'll be roasting my meat alone.

So really, in keeping with postmodern philosophy, there is no definition of “Neo-tribal,” and that’s the way it’s meant to be.

Let's try and keep it fresh and relevant to the world we live in. I think that is one of few responsibilities "contemporary" artists have.

It's about community.

Forge on!
 
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A friend and student of mine, recently finished up a week long seminar with native American Indian teens on neo-tribal metalsmithing. They had been experiencing a bit of disconnect from some of their lost or semi-lost traditions. They understood and really took a liking to the neo-tribal approach. They built a simple forge from salvaged parts and materials, and made some neo-tribal artifacts. Neo-tribal was a big hit!

Todd, I agree, there is no concrete, "in the box" definition that works for everyone. It is really more abstract, contemplative and personal. At any rate, the art historians of the future can have all the theories on it they want.

Truly primitive cultures had no concept of what modern westerners call "art" or a philosophy of aesthetics. Yet, art scholars from all around the world agree that much of what they did was art, by their academic definitions and parameters. At least that's how it looks to western thinkers. I have read some art historical accounts of "primitive tribes", just shaking their heads, when the art historians tried to explain to them what art is. We modern humans conceptualize things much differently and can not think or be truly primitive... any more than we can turn the clock back thousands of years.

I don't think we really have any other serious wannabe cavemen... although, I do think many of us would be interested in and possibly incorporate some aspects of "primitive" technology and aesthetics into our work. I think we'd also enjoy hearing some stories about when you lived with the "primitive" tribes. What was that like?

Please, stick around and educate us. I think you'll find that we are really a pretty open minded, multifaceted group here.

On a global scale, what we call "neo-tribal", represents the big tent... the main branch of post modernism and the times we live in.

Maybe not a clear verbal definition but,... it's been conceptualized. :)

con·cep·tu·al·ize verb \-ˌlīz\

: to form (an idea, picture, etc.) of something in your mind
 
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