Difference in Rockwell on 440c and Cpm154

percy

Well-Known Member
For some of you guys or gals that know more about this stuff. I have been making knives for 25 years and this has always been in the back of my mind but never reached out and pursued it.
If you heat treat 440c and have a 59 Rockwell and
you heat treat CPM 154 and get a 59 rockwell
why would one be more usuable that the other considering
they both have the same hardness.
I know toughness comes in but what else?
I use CPM-154 exclusively but I know Ruffin Johnson used 440C exclusively, I ask him once why he did not try something else
and he said he had never had any complaints from customers so why change. Good reason I suppose.
Someone help me understand what you different with these two steel that would make one better to use.
Thanks a lot for any time and consideration put into this.

Percy
 

Knifemaker.ca

Dealer - Purveyor
From the crucible data sheet for regular 154CM
--------------------------------------------
Crucible 154 CM is a modification of 440Cmartensitic stainless steel to which molybdenumhas been added. 154 CM has better corrosionresistance, better wear resistance and betterhot-hardness than 440C. For knifemakers, itoffers better edge retention than 440C. It alsohas higher attainable hardness and better​
through hardening characteristics than 440C.

-----------------------------------------------

For CPM154, you get all plus more even carbide distribution and twice the toughness for the same hardness.

Both have their place in knife making, but they are miles apart in performance capabilities.
 

rhinoknives

Well-Known Member
From the crucible data sheet for regular 154CM
--------------------------------------------
Crucible 154 CM is a modification of 440Cmartensitic stainless steel to which molybdenumhas been added. 154 CM has better corrosionresistance, better wear resistance and betterhot-hardness than 440C. For knifemakers, itoffers better edge retention than 440C. It alsohas higher attainable hardness and better​
through hardening characteristics than 440C.

-----------------------------------------------

For CPM154, you get all plus more even carbide distribution and twice the toughness for the same hardness.

Both have their place in knife making, but they are miles apart in performance capabilities.

Percy,

Along with all of the above, My finding when sharpening and using CPM-154 is that it not only produces a longer lasting edge but there is a little finer of a cutting edge to be had with CPM-154 because of it's finer grain structure than 440C.

I have used 440C and then CPM-154 since I started knife making 15 plus years.
I never have had any complaints about the 440C steel's corrosion resistance or edge holding ability and these have been most culinary knives and a few hunters so they have had their share of use and moisture

. I am slowly switching over to all CPM-154 on most of my knives except the very large ones. Still the performance that the 440C provides at the lesser cost of the steel does make it a attractive choice for any knife maker.

I had a conversation with Bob Shala "Spelling?" The owner of www.nsm-ny.com
about six months back and he said that some time in 2013 a new powder metal CPM-440C type steel should be available. He couldn't give me any more info than that at the time so I am watching for it.

If 440C as it is came out today? It would be the new wonder steel at it's price point in all of the knife mags.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 

percy

Well-Known Member
Thanks guys, this place is a world of info. I am joining because this much info should not be free.
How do you join as a knifemaker, take into consideration I am not a computer person.
 

Drew Riley

Well-Known Member
If 440C as it is came out today? It would be the new wonder steel at it's price point in all of the knife mags.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com

You know Laurence, I've never heard it put that way before, but I think you're absolutely right!

440C, I believe, has kind of gotten a bad rap because its cousins 440A and even 440B, and possibly because several knives made in the former two steels have been mislabeled or misrepresented as being 440C. I might even go so far as to say that because it's a "lower priced" steel that people think it's somehow inferior, and that's WHY it's lower priced than most other stainless steels.

Then again, it's also been around so long, that perhaps it's just being viewed as nearly obsolete in lieu of newer "super" steels.
 

rhinoknives

Well-Known Member
You know Laurence, I've never heard it put that way before, but I think you're absolutely right!

440C, I believe, has kind of gotten a bad rap because its cousins 440A and even 440B, and possibly because several knives made in the former two steels have been mislabeled or misrepresented as being 440C. I might even go so far as to say that because it's a "lower priced" steel that people think it's somehow inferior, and that's WHY it's lower priced than most other stainless steels.

Then again, it's also been around so long, that perhaps it's just being viewed as nearly obsolete in lieu of newer "super" steels.

Andrew,
I get the same impression that 440C get's dissed because of cheapo make knives make of 440 or some from china mislabel as 440C along with possible inferior overseas HT work.

I believe 440C has been around since the 1950's so some young makers may over look it because of all the super steel stainless that's around. It can be 30-50% less in cost and I really recommend it for a first stainless for makers and depending on what kind of knives you make, you may not need or want to change.

Another great thing about 440C is that anyone that heat treat's commercially can heat treat it for you. Like A golf club Mfg. for instance.

Laurence

www.rhinoknives.com
 

scott.livesey

Dealer - Purveyor
I had a conversation with Bob Shala "Spelling?" The owner of www.nsm-ny.com
about six months back and he said that some time in 2013 a new powder metal CPM-440C type steel should be available. He couldn't give me any more info than that at the time so I am watching for it.

carpenter has two versions on the street, micro-melt440c & micro-melt440xh
http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.a...a89-cb7d-4e4b-acca-13297b5a5884&CULTURE=en-US
http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.a...a89-cb7d-4e4b-acca-13297b5a5884&CULTURE=en-US
i guess micromelt is the carpenter version of cpm. dont know who who retails them
scott
 

percy

Well-Known Member
I called and talked to Carpenter this morning and they sent me to a supplier, but the supplier said they did not have it and had not heard of it. That is something when the maker
has a supplier that does not know of the product. How can you be a supplier if your number is the one given by the maker and you don't know what he says you are suppling.
Anyway another rant about inadequate info and employees that do not really care.
 
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