0 new items by Joe Cross
photos.app.goo.gl
failed canister Damascus..
- Thread starter jaxxas
- Start date
photos.app.goo.gl
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
At first look..... not enough heat, or if the heat was correct..... not enough soak time at the proper temp. Generally once it appears to be welding temp on the exterior, leave it for between 45 mins - 1 hour before the first forging sequence.
Thank you Ed!
Sorry for the all too brief post! I was experimenting with loading pictures and wasn't really convinced that I succeeded at that point. Then I gave up and started noodling on the guitar.
I agree totally with your diagnosis and I'm currently undertaking adding a blower to my little forge. I have a little single burner forge that has served me well but this canister was probably a bit too big (2"x2"x4")! I let it soak for what seemed forever but it just wasn't to be I guess. if my upgrade is successful I'm thinking about building a whole new forge. Not sure what exactly but a dual ribbon burner appeals to me.
Sorry for the all too brief post! I was experimenting with loading pictures and wasn't really convinced that I succeeded at that point. Then I gave up and started noodling on the guitar.
I agree totally with your diagnosis and I'm currently undertaking adding a blower to my little forge. I have a little single burner forge that has served me well but this canister was probably a bit too big (2"x2"x4")! I let it soak for what seemed forever but it just wasn't to be I guess. if my upgrade is successful I'm thinking about building a whole new forge. Not sure what exactly but a dual ribbon burner appeals to me.
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
I understand more...now that you mention the forge used. It's really tough to do something like that if the forge is too small....meaning that there isn't enough heat.
Ribbon burners are certainly a viable option! You just have to ensure you have the fuel supply to run them. Ribbon burners take a LOT of volume, which means if you're running a 20lb bottle, it's just not gona cut it for "canister welding". The bottle would freeze up in mid stream....and whatever is in the forge would be a train wreck. I would say that the minimum you'd want for a ribbon burner is a 100lb bottle, and better yet a large outdoor tank. (my shop has a 500gal tank that is piped in, and runs the forges..... it's very economical in that it only requires filling about once every 12-16 months) If you have all the things needed,
Personally, I'm fond of a single, blown burner, which is sized properly for the forge body it's used in. My welding forge, which is a vertical oval design.... with an interior that is 16" tall, 18" fron to back, and 10" side to side. The burner is a 164cfm blower (built for a forge), with 2" pipe coming out of the blower, into a 2' X 1 1/2" 90 degree elbow, and then to a 1 1/2" X 18" pipe, which goes into the forge. Because the forge is so big, it takes it a good 2 hours to heat to 2350F....but once there, I have to keep dialing it down to keep it under 2400F!
Ribbon burners are certainly a viable option! You just have to ensure you have the fuel supply to run them. Ribbon burners take a LOT of volume, which means if you're running a 20lb bottle, it's just not gona cut it for "canister welding". The bottle would freeze up in mid stream....and whatever is in the forge would be a train wreck. I would say that the minimum you'd want for a ribbon burner is a 100lb bottle, and better yet a large outdoor tank. (my shop has a 500gal tank that is piped in, and runs the forges..... it's very economical in that it only requires filling about once every 12-16 months) If you have all the things needed,
Personally, I'm fond of a single, blown burner, which is sized properly for the forge body it's used in. My welding forge, which is a vertical oval design.... with an interior that is 16" tall, 18" fron to back, and 10" side to side. The burner is a 164cfm blower (built for a forge), with 2" pipe coming out of the blower, into a 2' X 1 1/2" 90 degree elbow, and then to a 1 1/2" X 18" pipe, which goes into the forge. Because the forge is so big, it takes it a good 2 hours to heat to 2350F....but once there, I have to keep dialing it down to keep it under 2400F!
Well that leaves me with plenty to contemplate. More questions than answers, but that is the norm for me!
I can probably come up with a 100 lb propane tank, probably 2 in tandem.
I'm a bit confused between a ribbon burner and a blown burner. I kinda thought they were roughly the same. More homework!
My current thought is to patch up my current forge with a blown burner(?) like this guy made. Is that a blown or ribbon burner? a hybrid maybe? I've watched many many videos at this point. It seems to work well. Once the current forge is usable I will work on the new forge and it's design!
Thank you Ed!.
I can probably come up with a 100 lb propane tank, probably 2 in tandem.
I'm a bit confused between a ribbon burner and a blown burner. I kinda thought they were roughly the same. More homework!
My current thought is to patch up my current forge with a blown burner(?) like this guy made. Is that a blown or ribbon burner? a hybrid maybe? I've watched many many videos at this point. It seems to work well. Once the current forge is usable I will work on the new forge and it's design!
Thank you Ed!.
Randy Lucius
Well-Known Member
I agree. It’s a blessing to have Ed around. He’s helped me and many others numerous times. Thanks Ed!
EdCaffreyMS
"The Montana Bladesmith"
Thank you!! I appreciate the kind words! Just so everyone knows, one of my favorite parts of the Knifemaking World, is teaching. Often times you will see me go against popular opinion on a given subject, but it's only because I've been there, and done that, and would rather go against the grain, versus seeing someone fail by following faulty advice.
I'm sorry, but that video is leading you down what I think is the wrong path.... in many ways. What that guy has would be considered a blown burner. A ribbon burner is a distinctly different animal..... This is one of the best explanations of a ribbon burner that I've seen to date:
A blown burner requires far less fuel volume then a ribbon burner, but higher pressures..... which to use is the choice of each individual. I choose a properly size, single, blown burner for its simplicity, and ease of maintenance. I've only made one ribbon burner/forge, and found that for my purposes, it used far more fuel then my single blown burner to achieve the same level/duration of use. Which is why I tend to lean towards the single blown burner. That being said, I can see where a ribbon burner would shine for certain applications, but all things being equal, I think those instances would be more towards general forging/blacksmithing situation of very large pieces of steel. Just my opinion.
I'm sorry, but that video is leading you down what I think is the wrong path.... in many ways. What that guy has would be considered a blown burner. A ribbon burner is a distinctly different animal..... This is one of the best explanations of a ribbon burner that I've seen to date:
A blown burner requires far less fuel volume then a ribbon burner, but higher pressures..... which to use is the choice of each individual. I choose a properly size, single, blown burner for its simplicity, and ease of maintenance. I've only made one ribbon burner/forge, and found that for my purposes, it used far more fuel then my single blown burner to achieve the same level/duration of use. Which is why I tend to lean towards the single blown burner. That being said, I can see where a ribbon burner would shine for certain applications, but all things being equal, I think those instances would be more towards general forging/blacksmithing situation of very large pieces of steel. Just my opinion.
Last edited:
I think other folks missed a couple of your questions in post #5. Two 100 lb tanks is good because they last longer, but I think a single 100 lb tank will work just fine. I purchased two 100# tanks when TSC had them on sale for $100 each for Black Friday, but only have one at a time connected.
A forced air (blown) system is independent of the type of the type of burner, and is used for both ribbon and single outlet burner. I can't imagine a ribbon burner without a blower, but read venturi ribber burners do exist. All the ribbon burners I've read about do require a forced air system.
The video you linked is for a forced air system, but has no ribbon burner involved, just what is called a "forced air burner". Understand, per Ed's advice and guidance (thank you again Ed) in my forge build the best design for a horizontal forge is round rather than square with burner location coming in from side so the flame doesn't hit the work directly. That is for a knifemaker's forge, where a general blacksmith forge might well be square with burner coming in from top. A knifemaker's requirements for a forge are completely different than a blacksmith.
Here is a fairly long thread where Ed gives lots of GOOD advice and guidance:
https://knifedogs.com/threads/forge-question.50521/ This thread starts with me trying to add a blower to an existing forge I'd been using venturi style. Based on Ed's guidance I decided to build a new forge. Here's a thread with new forge: https://knifedogs.com/threads/new-forge.50681/
One of the nice things I learned with this build was where to get the forge body - from the local propane gas supplier. A discarded 30 lb tank is just the right size for a small forge and they are usually FREE!!
I have actually watched EC's ribbon burner video before (and many others), love that channel. I think to get my little forge back up and running I'm going to try to duplicate the KenH's setup. I can worry about the design of my future forge in the future! And I'll definitely look into a the propane supple company.
So I think I understand most of the info in your combined posts. Execution might be another issue. Probably have to totally redo my little forge to achieve the tangential placement of the burner but I'll see what I can do.
So one question is what exactly does the burner end look like?
I really appreciate all your combined help!
So I think I understand most of the info in your combined posts. Execution might be another issue. Probably have to totally redo my little forge to achieve the tangential placement of the burner but I'll see what I can do.
So one question is what exactly does the burner end look like?
I really appreciate all your combined help!
tkroenlein
Well-Known Member
A ribbon burner in action. Not mine. 
For the typical blown burner the "burner end" is just an open pipe. Nothing special at all,
Thank you Ken, that was I think my missing element!
I hope to start butchering on my little forge this weekend, the angle of the original burner is not tangential! But I'm an old school metal fabber so that shouldn't be a huge issue. Then I will have to reline in it with ceramic wool and refractory cement. A friend has supplied the wool and cement as well as the blower so with a little luck by this time next week I might be up and running! I also obtained a pyrometer good to 3200 degrees or so so I should know what temps I can achieve.