Making stain for maple

HELLGAP

HELLGAP

Dealer - Purveyor
Ide like to know what ratio I need to dilute . I have MURIATIC ACID and want to disolve some steel wool the stuff I have is bull dog fine steel wool. Will this work and if so what ratio of water do I need to add. The Muriatic Acid is bought from the hardware store for etching concrete and so on . I would only like knowledgable people reply as this is a dangerous thing Im working with. thanks kellyw
 
I can't answer your question but I can give a word of warning. I worked with muriatic ONE time etching a blade. I set the blade in an open container with diluted muriatic and let it sit for about five minutes came back to check on the blade and every piece of metal within five feet of the container had rust starting on it from the vapor.:mad: NASTY stuff.:eek:
I did just make some dye using 16 oz of vinegar and one OOOO steel wool. Took about three days and was done. Much milder and safer. Just be careful with the muriatic and good luck. I am sure someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in. Wade
 
HELLGAP said:
Ide like to know what ratio I need to dilute . I have MURIATIC ACID and want to disolve some steel wool the stuff I have is bull dog fine steel wool. Will this work and if so what ratio of water do I need to add. The Muriatic Acid is bought from the hardware store for etching concrete and so on . I would only like knowledgable people reply as this is a dangerous thing Im working with. thanks kellyw
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You are right, Kelly, it's dangerous. What I'm curious about is why use something that is dangerous to the user, can cause rust to your equipment, and can etch and rust your blade or corrode fittings if the wood is attached to the knife? Then there is that whole got to take days just to make the stain and go through all sorts of extra steps to stain your handle thing.

The best stain I ever used was Tandy Leather Store's house brand spirit based leather dye. You can sand the wood to a very smooth level and the alcohol based dye still penetrates well. It's not horribly expensive and only takes a couple of minutes to stain a handle, then a day to dry before applying a proper finish. If you have the need to make your own stain, you can buy aniline dye and mix it with water, but any water based stain is most likely going to raise the grain of the wood.

David
 
David your right about the saftey and corrosive part of it . I went and bought some acid and will only use it to etch my damascus blades. Thanks ,some time a guy needs a reminder like that. I will get some dye and thats if I dont have the right stuff already. Kellyw
 
David,
If all you want is to contrast the hard and soft layers of maple,or just change the color, then dye is great. It will develop the color differences pretty distinctly, and you can pick your color choice.
However, that is only part of what the ferric acid treatment does (ferric nitrate or ferric acetate). The acid reacts with the sugars in the wood and carbonizes them......basicly turn the sugar to caramel. Then the heat is applied to speed up the reaction and finish the carbonization. The wood will look ruined, but when sanded/steel wooled down the dark and chatoyant 3-D distinction will show. This can not be obtained with dye.

Kelly,
Using nitric acid and steel wool gives you the classic Aqua fortis - ferric nitrate
Using vinegar and steel wool gives you ferric acetate, which works well,too.
Using muriatic acid and steel wool gives you ferric chloride, which is what you etch your blades with. Some people have used it to react maple with, but it is not really a good substitute.

One day I'll have to mix up some ferric sulfate and see how that works ( sulfuric acid and steel wool). I used to use concentrated sulfuric acid to carbonize sugar in the process of bring out the fire in Andamoonka black opal ( matrix opal). Still have a gallon or two in the chemical shed.
 
Aqua Fortis can be purchased from " TRACK OF THE WOLF". Aqua Fortis is diluted nitric acid and iron, and not really all that dangerous to use.
 
Stacy Apelt said:
David,
If all you want is to contrast the hard and soft layers of maple,or just change the color, then dye is great. It will develop the color differences pretty distinctly, and you can pick your color choice.
However, that is only part of what the ferric acid treatment does (ferric nitrate or ferric acetate). The acid reacts with the sugars in the wood and carbonizes them......basicly turn the sugar to caramel. Then the heat is applied to speed up the reaction and finish the carbonization. The wood will look ruined, but when sanded/steel wooled down the dark and chatoyant 3-D distinction will show. This can not be obtained with dye.
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Stacy,

I'm curious where you've gotten your information. Caramelized sugar is burnt sugar. Sugars are heated to 300-350 degrees until the begin to burn. I've never soaked my onions in ferric nitrate to caramelize them! Are you saying that the acidic compound you've created burns the sugars in the wood? A quick google search indicates that long before commercial wood stains were made in the late 19th and early 20th centuries furniture makers would dissolve iron nails in the acid until the acid was depleted and wouldn't dissolve any more iron, then used it as a brown stain for furniture.

How do you account for the chatoyant 3-D distinction on wood that has no ferric acid treatment? The chatoyancy in curly maple and other woods is caused by the way the fibers in the wood grow and how the light enters and is reflected back out. If the wood exhibits any chatoyance it's not because of any staining or chemical process. In fact, chatoyance is much more likely shown in woods like curly maple, koa, and walnut by the type of finish used and how it's applied. Chatoyance shows up by "wetting" the wood. Spit on it or dip it in a bucket of water and it will show without any chemical reactions. If you properly apply a penetrating finish the chatoyant shift of the curls as you change the angle of the wood to the light shows on natural unstained maple. I get this same thing on curly koa, curly and crotch cut walnut, and some other woods, and I don't add any stain, acids etc. It also shows up well on stabilized woods with curl and other figure, including stabilized un-dyed curly maple, koa, etc. All any colorant, whether yours or mine, does for chatoyance is increase the contrast.

In addition to the wetting action showing chatoyance, there are woods that never get a stain and finish and display chatoyance. Ironwood is a good example. The chatoyance is in the wood, and the polishing helps it show more with no chemicals added.

Every knife handle I've made with curly maple has been stained with modern dyes or furniture stains. They all exhibit good chatoyance because a. it's already a part of the wood, and b. I "wet" the wood with many coats of a penetrating finish, either tung oil or a polyurethane formulated for rubbing (which is a much better finish than any old style varnish).

If these old home brew things were really that good, safe, efficient, etc, then they would still be widely used, but they are not. Back in the day when this was how furniture was made, they'd also brush on varnish made from pine tree sap, and of course that never holds up well! You can get the same effect with modern materials and do it without all the hassle and possible danger, and it will likely last much longer.

David
 
David all I can say is you will get better/deeper chatoyance using AQ on maple (and several other woods for that matter) than ANY other stain/finish. My claim is based on using both standard dyes (wood and leather) and AQ for better than 40 years and the AQ wins hands down, but it's not something that can be demonstrated via low rez internet images.
Ferric Acetate is iron dissolved in nitric acid until no more iron will dissolve, but it never completely depletes the acid - when using it one must not only blush with heat (300°F or so, but you must neutralize to end all of the chemical reaction, which includes "burning" (actually it oxidizes) the sugars and reacting with the the tannins - in fact one can increase the "look" by applying tannins (i.e. strong brewed black tea) .
As for why we use such materails - the idea that something new is necessarily better is in some cases subjective dependent on intended usage, perception, and the overall look desired. Some of the old ideas and methods are in fact equivalent and in some cases better even under heavy usage, but the older methods more often either more expensive due to materials or more cost effective due to application time and methods. As for safety most commerically prepared dyes and finishes are or can be toxic, especially with long term exposure.
Reasons for why some of use and prefer the old methods:
1) Most of us who use these methods (and some of the finest multi-talented individuals such as Jud Brennan, Eric Kettenburg, the House Brothers use them and get paid big bucks - these are not just methods for the "hobbyist") do it because we are interested in the methods of the past and recreating as closely as possible items of the past and not just wall hangers either. While many of the "best" pieces never leave the safe just as many custom knives do, many, many more are used as they were used by our ancestors under the same demanding conditions and they hold up excellently in terms of wear - they take a bit more time to care for, but that's just part of the experience.
2) Those of us who make historically based items also like to use period materials and methods whenever possible because for the historical replica market, where such things matter, it can substantially increase one's price point and sales appeal. In other words different markets take different methods/materials. Fact is most of the "custom knife world" knows/understands little about the real thing when it come to reproducing the items of the past - often considering the more or less "fantasy" based items which may or may not be loosely based on originals, the real McCoy because they "look" right. This is also true to a lesser degree to many of the "black powder" crowd, many who often get their ideas from movies rather than doing the research.

Bottomline - like most things there is nor real right or wrong when making such choices, if one prefers the modern methods than use them and make no apologies - the same goes for the "traditionlist" - for those wanting to make sales - learn your market.............
 
Excellent info from everyone I will try the white viniger and steel wool. So how do I neutralize it after I soak the wood before stabilization. Baking soda ???? I dont know. I heard someone say black tea ??? I will use the acid I bought fror etching some damascus I bought . Kellyw
 
HELLGAP said:
Excellent info from everyone I will try the white viniger and steel wool. So how do I neutralize it after I soak the wood before stabilization. Baking soda ???? I dont know. I heard someone say black tea ??? I will use the acid I bought fror etching some damascus I bought . Kellyw
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No real need to neutralize the vinegar mix - acetic acid is very volatile and off gases very quickly unlike nitric. For the same reason ther's no real need to use the heat - that only needs to be done with the nitric based stain. While the two (Aqua Fortis aka Ferric Nitrate and the vinegar mix Ferric Acetate) work similarly they are not exactly the same thing.

Not sure how you're going to use this before stabilization since it is a "surface" stain and does not stain completely throigh the wood. You would have to shape you're piece to a practically finished state before you could stain????
 
For those that are cautious about using stains made from the stronger acids, you might look at the stains from Laurel Mountain Forge as an alternative. Already mixed, in a variety of shades from cherry to walnut.
 
Ok now Im back to the Drawing board. I want the stain to go right through before stabilizing the wood. If the vinegar soulution wont penitrate ??? what if i put it in my pressure vessel and the pull 28 mercury ???? Ide like to know. thanks
 
Well I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the tannin in the wood reacts with the acid (whichever flavor acid "trips" your trigger) and the heat, to give more depth to the figure, versus a surface "stain" (either oil or water). That would be my guess why the figure appears to "pop" more with this method.

In the end, theres lots of ways to skin the cat, and lots of it is geographical in nature. The curly birch in Russia and Scandinavia is used with a tar/oil mixture and they get outstanding results. Some of the figure with this wood on the scandi handles and the way they're finished out, is in another class altogether....So my point is....try a few different methods out, and see which you like better.

As far as stabilizing goes, I am almost always in favor of having it done, but I have sent birdseye maple that was very hard and very figured to Mike, and in retrospect now I would'ved finish it out with either acid or leather dye, etc. I really like some of transtint's dyes. I have a stick tang blade that has been redone at least 3 times, and I will probably redo it again, until I get the right finish on it that I like. I used M acid and had it really nice with a little dye on top of that, and then went for the CA finish.......and of course CA got messed up, well a few times. So just try them out and see what you like.....oh and post pictures so we can see too.

Heres the blade I am talking about, and the WIP using the M acid.... http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?t=2564

Larry
 
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