A few questions on shop tools, never made a knife before...

PetrifiedWood

PetrifiedWood

Well-Known Member
I just joined here yesterday ( Introduction thread ) and have already learned a few really neat tricks from browsing around, particularly the tutorials on how to antique brass parts, and how to do a "superglue finish". I think I will be using both of those techniques at some point in the future so here's a heartfelt "thanks" to the people who posted them, and all the other tidbits of knowledge here.

I want to make some knives using the stock removal method. So I've been reading as much as I can while I wait for my tools and supplies to arrive.

I got a shipment today from USA Knifemaker.com with a few items inside.

I got a blade fixture for my oven (still on order).
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Some tigerstripe G10.
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And some ironwood.
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I'm excited to get started, but I know there are still some tools I'll need.

So far I know I will need some sort of high temp gloves (welding gloves?) I will also need to get something to remove the blades from the oven to transfer to the quench. I'm guessing some kind of tongs but I'm not sure what kind to buy or where to find them.

I also will need a respirator for the sanding. I don't think the little dust masks are going to cut it.

And I'll need to figure out something to use for a quench tank. I originally thought a steel drywall mud trough would be good but after doing some reading I learned that the oil often catches on fire and you need a more bucket shaped tank with a lid to put out the flames.

I thought about using an aquarium heater in the oil to bring it up to temperature. Has anyone had success with something like that? Just trying to figure out how to do a decent quench tank on the cheap without spending too much time building things.

Another thing my shop doesn't have is an oxy-acetylene torch. I have a propane torch that also works with Mapp gas. I'd rather avoid buying a torch if it isn't necessary. I also don't have a band saw. I do have a right angle grinder and some cut-off wheels for it. I've also got a dremel tool for smaller stuff with plenty of attachments. I have a pretty basic drill press with bearings that are mostly shot, and I have a halfway decent benchtop metal lathe. I also have a harbor freight 1X30 belt sander and a Grizzly 2X72 being delivered in a couple of days.



So I guess some questions are:

What kind of tongs should I buy and from where?

Are welding gloves sufficient for removing hot steel from the oven with the tongs, or should I get a different kind of glove?

Will it really slow me down working without a torch or band saw?

What are some good low-cost, space saving tools for cutting out the blade profile from the bar stock? Would a metal cutting blade on a hand held jigsaw get me by?

Do you see any possible pitfalls with my aquarium heater idea for a quench tank?

Sorry for all the questions but I am full of them right now. :biggrin:
 
Wow, you went big early! Awesome! For cutting the blade profile, I use a dremel and a hacksaw presently, but I'm a one at a time kind of maker. I'd think your angle grinder and a metal blade on the jigsaw for the detail cuts would get you by just fine.

If I'm tracking you right, you're going to use your torch to HT, and your oven to temper, right? If you do a search two or one brick forge, you can make a nice set up with your mapp torch for a forge using firebrick and wire. It's on my to do list.

I'm not certain your aquarium heater will get the temps up with the quenchant medium (oil, etc.). A propane burner with a good variable setting might be a better option. I use that for melting lead alloys for casting, so that will probably be my going in solution.
 
For heating oil, you can always just cut a few small bars of steel that you can heat in your oven and then drop in your quench tank to heat the oil. Just remember to agitate the oil after each piece to allow the heat to disipate thoroughly then check the temp. Repeat til you reach your desired temp.

For an inexpensive quench tank, you can use a cheap stock pot. You can typically find one for less than $20. Just remember to glue a piece of plywood in the bottom if it is a very thin pot. If you accidentally drop a blade jnto the pot, the tip could puncture a thin bottom.

I would stick to using your angle grinder and Dremmel for cutting blanks. I don't believe you will have much luck with your jigsaw will have much luck with 1/8"+ steel.
 
chapnelson said:
Wow, you went big early! Awesome! For cutting the blade profile, I use a dremel and a hacksaw presently, but I'm a one at a time kind of maker. I'd think your angle grinder and a metal blade on the jigsaw for the detail cuts would get you by just fine.

If I'm tracking you right, you're going to use your torch to HT, and your oven to temper, right? If you do a search two or one brick forge, you can make a nice set up with your mapp torch for a forge using firebrick and wire. It's on my to do list.

I'm not certain your aquarium heater will get the temps up with the quenchant medium (oil, etc.). A propane burner with a good variable setting might be a better option. I use that for melting lead alloys for casting, so that will probably be my going in solution.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I have an evenheat kiln on the way (that's what the blade fixture is for) to use for the heat treating. I mentioned the torch because I have been reading a couple of books and one of the authors uses a torch almost exclusively to cut knife blanks out of old sawmill blades. I wasn't sure if I was going to be wasting a lot of my time trying to cut blanks out of bar stock without a torch, or if it would go fast enough using the tools I have. I've used aquarium heaters to heat a 5 gallon bucket of water-based dye up to 140 degrees F for anodizing (I no longer have my anodizing line) but I was worried that some of the plastics would react with the oil and break down.

murphda2 said:
For heating oil, you can always just cut a few small bars of steel that you can heat in your oven and then drop in your quench tank to heat the oil. Just remember to agitate the oil after each piece to allow the heat to disipate thoroughly then check the temp. Repeat til you reach your desired temp.

For an inexpensive quench tank, you can use a cheap stock pot. You can typically find one for less than $20. Just remember to glue a piece of plywood in the bottom if it is a very thin pot. If you accidentally drop a blade jnto the pot, the tip could puncture a thin bottom.

I would stick to using your angle grinder and Dremmel for cutting blanks. I don't believe you will have much luck with your jigsaw will have much luck with 1/8"+ steel.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response! I have heard about using some hot metal from the oven to preheat heat the oil. A stock pot hadn't occurred to me, and I appreciate the tip about using a plywood disk to protect the bottom.

That's disappointing about the jigsaw as I had hoped it would be a time saver, but I guess the angle grinder and dremel will have to do for now. My shop is very small and there just isn't room for a band saw. The shop has to support a benchtop metal lathe that I use for other things, a small drill press, and a part-time reloading bench too so space is at a premium.

Perhaps this will seem like a silly question, but when the heat treat cycle has run on the oven, how much time do I have to get the blades out of the oven and into the quench? I've read that it's best to move a blade around in the oil for 15 seconds or so. If I spend this much time on each blade, will the remaining blades in the kiln cool fast enough to screw up the heat treat process?

I'm just not clear on that part.
 
One very important thing for knife making is a good selection of reference materials. How to Make Knives is a good book focused mainly on stock removal. The temperatures for austinizing steel proir to quenching and the length of soaking time at heat is going to vary by the alloy used. The steel must be above critical temperature when it enters the quenchant so go from the oven to the quenchant just as fast as you can safely move and be no more than on step from the oven to your tank. Of course if you are using an air quenching steel you will have it in the quenchant just as soon as you remove the steel from the oven. You are also going to have to have a seperate oven for tempering. It will take too long for your heat treating oven to cool down to a tempering temperature to use it. You can use a toaster oven to temper in. That or you can build a small gas forge to austinize the steel in and use the Evenheat to temper in. That would probably be the best route to go if you are using stainless steel or one of the more complex air hardening tool steels because many of them require a tempering temperature that is higher than can be achieved in a toaster or kitchen oven. It will deffinantly be the way you will have to go, unless you buy a second heat treating oven if you have a more complex steel with a secondary harding node and you want to try for it.

Doug
 
Lately I've been wishing that I had a metal cutting band saw but they are expensive. I get by pretty well with a hacksaw and the grinder with a 36 grit belt (even using 1/4 inch stock). The grizzly moves pretty quick and will hog-off the excess steel quickly.
You probably already ordered these items, but I'll mention them anyway. Lay out dye is necessary as is a carbide scribe to mark your profile and center-lines. An item that has been very helpful is a height gauge to mark the center-line. Once you set it, you'll be able to re-scribe the lines, as needed, while you grind.
If you will be making guards. a spotting drill bit is helpful. They are much thicker that a jobber drill bit so there is no flex and they stay
"on point" better.

Jay
 
Doug Lester said:
One very important thing for knife making is a good selection of reference materials. How to Make Knives is a good book focused mainly on stock removal. The temperatures for austinizing steel proir to quenching and the length of soaking time at heat is going to vary by the alloy used. The steel must be above critical temperature when it enters the quenchant so go from the oven to the quenchant just as fast as you can safely move and be no more than on step from the oven to your tank. Of course if you are using an air quenching steel you will have it in the quenchant just as soon as you remove the steel from the oven. You are also going to have to have a seperate oven for tempering. It will take too long for your heat treating oven to cool down to a tempering temperature to use it. You can use a toaster oven to temper in. That or you can build a small gas forge to austinize the steel in and use the Evenheat to temper in. That would probably be the best route to go if you are using stainless steel or one of the more complex air hardening tool steels because many of them require a tempering temperature that is higher than can be achieved in a toaster or kitchen oven. It will deffinantly be the way you will have to go, unless you buy a second heat treating oven if you have a more complex steel with a secondary harding node and you want to try for it.

Doug
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll try to find a copy of that book. I have a copy of $50 Knife Shop and "Step-by-Step Knifemaking, You can do it!" that I have been going through the past few days, along with a lot of reading here and elsewhere online.

I had planned to use O1 to start out with and heat it to critical temperature in the kiln and then temper in a conventional oven. It hadn't even occurred to me that I'd need a kiln to reach tempering temperatures for some steels!

So, any recommendations on tongs and where to find them? I don't think my BBQ tongs are grippy enough. :biggrin:
 
i use a large pair of vise grips for my oven so i now the blade wont fall out as i aggitate in the oil
 
Sticks said:
Lately I've been wishing that I had a metal cutting band saw but they are expensive. I get by pretty well with a hacksaw and the grinder with a 36 grit belt (even using 1/4 inch stock). The grizzly moves pretty quick and will hog-off the excess steel quickly.
You probably already ordered these items, but I'll mention them anyway. Lay out dye is necessary as is a carbide scribe to mark your profile and center-lines. An item that has been very helpful is a height gauge to mark the center-line. Once you set it, you'll be able to re-scribe the lines, as needed, while you grind.
If you will be making guards. a spotting drill bit is helpful. They are much thicker that a jobber drill bit so there is no flex and they stay
"on point" better.

Jay
Click to expand...

I remember reading somewhere that a drill bit can be used to scribe the line by choosing one the same diameter as the stock thickness and laying them both on a flat surface.

I do have some center drills for my lathe that I can use for starting holes.

Anyhow, thanks for the reminder about the layout dye and scribing tools.

I don't have a height gauge but I've got a couple sets of calipers and some dial indicators, though I'm not sure if the indicators would be of much help.
 
franklin said:
i use a large pair of vise grips for my oven so i now the blade wont fall out as i aggitate in the oil
Click to expand...

Thanks. I was worried it would be too hot to get close enough with some more conventional pliers like vise grips or channel locks. This is good news!
 
PetrifiedWood said:
I remember reading somewhere that a drill bit can be used to scribe the line by choosing one the same diameter as the stock thickness and laying them both on a flat surface.

I do have some center drills for my lathe that I can use for starting holes.

Anyhow, thanks for the reminder about the layout dye and scribing tools.

I don't have a height gauge but I've got a couple sets of calipers and some dial indicators, though I'm not sure if the indicators would be of much help.
Click to expand...


A drill bit! That's a good idea! Never thought about that. Well the are a hundred ways to do everything I guess and finding one that works for you is part of the fun of this addiction!
 
You can use just about anything for taking the steel out of the heat treating oven, especially if you are using a welding glove to protect your hand from any heat readiating from the oven. I just use a kitchen mit to take the blades out of the kitchen oven while tempering.

You can get all sorts of advice on blade steels. Everyone seems to have their favorites for good, bad, and indifferent reasons. O1 is good. One person who uses it recommends a preheat before austinization. Maybe he will chime in with the temperatures that he uses. It's too simple to a secondary harding node or, I believe, to bennifet from cryoquenching.

One good place for getting heat treating information is ASM International at www.asminternational.org. You don't have to join but you will have to set up an account, which is free. After that you can purchase data sheets and ITT/IT/TTT diagrams mostly for about $20 per article and they download to your computer. It beats paying about $250 for a book full of information on steels that you won't or can't use just to get information on a hand full of steels. They also sell books on metallurgy and teach correspondance courses.

Doug
 
Doug Lester said:
You can use just about anything for taking the steel out of the heat treating oven, especially if you are using a welding glove to protect your hand from any heat readiating from the oven. I just use a kitchen mit to take the blades out of the kitchen oven while tempering.

You can get all sorts of advice on blade steels. Everyone seems to have their favorites for good, bad, and indifferent reasons. O1 is good. One person who uses it recommends a preheat before austinization. Maybe he will chime in with the temperatures that he uses. It's too simple to a secondary harding node or, I believe, to bennifet from cryoquenching.

One good place for getting heat treating information is ASM International at www.asminternational.org. You don't have to join but you will have to set up an account, which is free. After that you can purchase data sheets and ITT/IT/TTT diagrams mostly for about $20 per article and they download to your computer. It beats paying about $250 for a book full of information on steels that you won't or can't use just to get information on a hand full of steels. They also sell books on metallurgy and teach correspondance courses.

Doug
Click to expand...


Before I get too deeply involved I want to start with a simple oil-hardening steel that I can get consistent good heat treat results with in my small shop and temper in my kitchen oven. I've heard good things about O1, and 1080/1084. I want to go with the simplest heat treat possible so that I can focus my efforts on learning to get even grinds. I have learned so much in the last day or so of browsing this forum. There truly is a wealth of information here that I haven't seen in the books I have so far. It seems like for every hour I spend reading here I come away with a new trick to try once I get things going.

I also bought a piece of A2 a few days ago because I thought it would be really easy to "air quench", but I have since learned through reading here that a 500 degree temper will only bring it down to a Rockwell hardness of 60, which seems like it might be a little on the brittle side for the type of knife and grind I want to make (bushcraft knives with scandi grinds). So perhaps the A2 should be reserved for another type of knife sometime in the future.
 
Seems like you are picking up a lot of good info.
I agree with you about the metal cutting bandsaw. They are expensive. I bought a right angle grinder and some thin cutting disks for it. I will scribe my barstock to the length I want and cut it with the angle grinder.
When I have a blade pattern that I like I will trace it into a piece of 1/4" plexiglass and grind out the profile on it. Then I clamp the plexiglas glass on the barstock I cut and scribe around the plexiglass. Then just stock remove the excess steel off your blank. It's not the most efficient method, but it works until I get a metal cutting bandsaw.

EP
 
When you buy the steel, do yourself a favor and buy the "flat ground" or "precision ground", if you don't have a surface grinder. It doesn't cost much more for O1 or A2 and is available from the online metal stores you'll find with your favorte internet search engine. It saves a lot of time and elbow grease. I've caused more problems trying to flatten the stock with a platen than I care to remember.

One other item that I use is a piece of granite, like a sink cutout, for sanding, layout work , etc.

Jay
 
Yes, I doubt that you can temper A2 in the kitchen oven. Also you need to avoid tempering between 500-600 degrees because you can actually cause embrittlement between those temperatures as a general rule. You will also need to soak A2 for about 10-15 minutes but it should still be possible in a gas forge. It may also have a secondary tempering node based on the scant information that I have for it. You could look that up. It does have the advantage of low distortion and good wear resistance but might not be the best choice for a large chopper.

Doug
 
Your getting some very good info here !

Tongs for removing blades- I made my HT (heat treat) tongs from a standard pair of linesmans pliers. I got a 4' piece of electrical conduit cut it in half then put one on each side of the pliers and hammered them on tight. I did find I needed to use my angle grinder to grind away the wire cutter part of the pliers because it will squeeze a little V notch on the tang of the blade.

If I was gonna buy a pair for this purpose I'd get the duckbill tongs from Riverside machine-
http://www.riversidemachine.net/productCat4749.ctlg

Here's another source for tongs
https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/page.php?theLocation=/Resources/Site_Pages

For tempering- It is NOT advised to leave the door open to cool down the oven. The reason is that this practice will pre-maturely wear out the elements in the oven. What I do is harden my blade then temper in the kitchen oven set at 250 degrees (which gives an actual temp of about 300) for a couple hours immediately after hardening. Then I run a 2x2 (2 hours 2 times) the next day in the Evenheat at my desired temp. I use this method reguardless of my tempering temp due to the Evenheat being MUCH more precise than a kitchen or toaster oven.

Alot of folks use ammo cans for quench tanks. An easy way to warm the oil is to just flash the side of the can with a Mapp gas torch until you get to your desired temp. Another buddy of mine uses a turkey frier as his quench tank and fires up the burner to warm the oil. Lots of ways to skin this cat.

A2 has a toughness peak at a 500 degree temper. This means tempering hotter will make the blade softer BUT with LESS toughness. Same process for tempering will work here. Harden, air quench, low temp temper in kitchen, then temper 2x2 @500 the next day

-Just some things that came to mind while reading through your thread

-Josh
 
if you have a drill press,i drill holes around the pattern then use hacksaw its not to hard when just conecting the dots and then just sand the nibs off with old 50/80grit belt
 
Eric Poris said:
Seems like you are picking up a lot of good info.
I agree with you about the metal cutting bandsaw. They are expensive. I bought a right angle grinder and some thin cutting disks for it. I will scribe my barstock to the length I want and cut it with the angle grinder.
When I have a blade pattern that I like I will trace it into a piece of 1/4" plexiglass and grind out the profile on it. Then I clamp the plexiglas glass on the barstock I cut and scribe around the plexiglass. Then just stock remove the excess steel off your blank. It's not the most efficient method, but it works until I get a metal cutting bandsaw.

EP
Click to expand...

It just so happens I have some 1/4" plexiglass left over from a home made ATV windshield project. I might give this a try. Thanks for the tip!

Sticks said:
When you buy the steel, do yourself a favor and buy the "flat ground" or "precision ground", if you don't have a surface grinder. It doesn't cost much more for O1 or A2 and is available from the online metal stores you'll find with your favorte internet search engine. It saves a lot of time and elbow grease. I've caused more problems trying to flatten the stock with a platen than I care to remember.

One other item that I use is a piece of granite, like a sink cutout, for sanding, layout work , etc.

Jay
Click to expand...

I have a small (6X12X3) marble block with one finished surface that I bought for leather work as a base for tooling years ago. Unfortunately there are a few surface blemishes from accidental slips where I punched through the leather but it might be of some use. And as luck would have it, all the steel I've ordered so far (just a few pieces) has been ground stock from Precision Brand and Starrett. I ordered a few pieces from Amazon since I'm a "prime" member and get free 2 day shipping on most items.

Doug Lester said:
Yes, I doubt that you can temper A2 in the kitchen oven. Also you need to avoid tempering between 500-600 degrees because you can actually cause embrittlement between those temperatures as a general rule. You will also need to soak A2 for about 10-15 minutes but it should still be possible in a gas forge. It may also have a secondary tempering node based on the scant information that I have for it. You could look that up. It does have the advantage of low distortion and good wear resistance but might not be the best choice for a large chopper.

Doug
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have been thinking the A2 will have to wait until such time (if ever) I can make the space to set up a forge. Or I could use it for practice grinding and send it off for heat treat so it doesn't just sit there if I'm happy with the grinding results. I thought about an application for it and I think I can make a couple of skinners out of the 18" piece I have. That would at least be a low impact application it might be better suited for as opposed to a big chopper.

Josh Dabney said:
Your getting some very good info here !

Tongs for removing blades- I made my HT (heat treat) tongs from a standard pair of linesmans pliers. I got a 4' piece of electrical conduit cut it in half then put one on each side of the pliers and hammered them on tight. I did find I needed to use my angle grinder to grind away the wire cutter part of the pliers because it will squeeze a little V notch on the tang of the blade.

If I was gonna buy a pair for this purpose I'd get the duckbill tongs from Riverside machine-
http://www.riversidemachine.net/productCat4749.ctlg

Here's another source for tongs
https://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/page.php?theLocation=/Resources/Site_Pages

For tempering- It is NOT advised to leave the door open to cool down the oven. The reason is that this practice will pre-maturely wear out the elements in the oven. What I do is harden my blade then temper in the kitchen oven set at 250 degrees (which gives an actual temp of about 300) for a couple hours immediately after hardening. Then I run a 2x2 (2 hours 2 times) the next day in the Evenheat at my desired temp. I use this method reguardless of my tempering temp due to the Evenheat being MUCH more precise than a kitchen or toaster oven.

Alot of folks use ammo cans for quench tanks. An easy way to warm the oil is to just flash the side of the can with a Mapp gas torch until you get to your desired temp. Another buddy of mine uses a turkey frier as his quench tank and fires up the burner to warm the oil. Lots of ways to skin this cat.

A2 has a toughness peak at a 500 degree temper. This means tempering hotter will make the blade softer BUT with LESS toughness. Same process for tempering will work here. Harden, air quench, low temp temper in kitchen, then temper 2x2 @500 the next day

-Just some things that came to mind while reading through your thread

-Josh
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice! It hadn't even occurred to me to modify an existing set of pliers with longer handles. That might be the way to go for me as all sorts of pliers are easy to find locally.

I'm surprised a thermocouple would give a more accurate temperature reading than a conventional oven thermometer. You learn something new every day! :D

I think my kitchen oven can go to 500 degrees. But as I understand it, you have to go quickly from the quench to the tempering oven. If my shop is outside and it takes me 5 minutes or so to get into the house to get a blade into the oven, is that too long a time? This has been my plan, but I'm not opposed to getting a toaster oven if need be in order to get it in the tempering heat faster. My kitchen toaster oven is getting a little cruddy and I'm sure my wife wouldn't object to me using it if I buy a new one for the kitchen.

I like the ammo can quench tank idea too!

franklin said:
if you have a drill press,i drill holes around the pattern then use hacksaw its not to hard when just conecting the dots and then just sand the nibs off with old 50/80grit belt
Click to expand...

I do have a drill press, that sounds a lot easier than trying to cut through a solid piece with a hand held hacksaw. Thanks for the tip!

A few more things showed up today and I bought some more in town. Today I got another piece of O1, 1/8X1-3/4X18, and some belts that are surprisingly thin from Grizzly Tools, along with a belt/disk cleaning tool. Looks like a giant block of plastic on a stick. The belts are a lot thinner than the sanding belts I'm used to seeing like the ones I have for my 1X30 and 4x36 sanders. I'm not sure they will hold up but I guess I will find out soon enough!

I also picked up a mandrel for my drill so I can try the smaller buffs with the blades clamped in a vise to hopefully cut down on flying knives. I used to do a little aluminum anodizing several years ago and I'm all too familiar with a buff catching a part and tearing it from even the most firm grip. So I figured I'd give the stationary blade/moving buff a try instead.

I also picked up a new set of grinding and sanding tools for the dremel, and got a 16 piece pack of spring clamps for gluing scales. I picked up a $2 pair of metal cutting blades for the jigsaw just to try them out. If they don't work I have plenty of backup options, but if they do it will be a time saver. I currently have some layout dye and a carbide scribe on order as well.

I have 2 huge blocks of Tripoli compound I got free as part of a promotional deal Grizzly tool was running last year when I bought some repair parts for my lathe. I also have a couple of other sticks of compound.

Anyhow, thank you all for the replies and I hope this post isn't too long-winded! :biggrin:
 
Lets talk a little about going from the quench to the temper-

How fast do you need to temper ? At least long enough for the blade to cool to room temp first. (Probably 10-15 minutes minimum) In certain circumstances with certain steels and certain quench mediums then there is the risk of the blade cracking between the quench and temper. ESPECIALLY when using water or brine as a quenchant and to a lesser degree fast oil like parks 50.

O1 or A2 you shouldn't need to worry about and there's never a need to rush.

The purpose of the low temp kitchen oven temper is just a stress relief not to reach your target hardness. The kitchen ovens readout is a setting only and not the actual temp. inside, Heating a large volume of air like that is prone to large temp. swings also. Checking our kitchen oven with an oven thermometer revealed it's much hotter than the setting.

There's more to it than that but it's at least a summary to help you understand.

Metallurgy is a DEEP subject and there's ALOT to learn

Having Doug Lester in the conversation is is a bonus for you ! He's very knowledgable about metallurgy and could offer a far clearer explanation than me.

-Josh
 
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