A mixed thank you to FIF

[Chris Railey]

I thought I would share a funny conversation I had recently with a good friend. As a disclaimer, the friend is a good guy and he meant no harm by this exchange it just struck me as an example of what I call the 'FIF mentality'. Friend: Chris, I had to replace one of the leaf springs on my truck, do you want the old ones? ME: If you are not going to use it for anything, I will put it in my materials storage pile for a future project. Friend: No I have no use for it. ME: Ok thanks, I will take it. Friend: All I want In return is for you to make me an Ulu blade like them Alaskans use. ME: Wait, you want me to do $200 plus worth of work for a worn out leaf spring that is headed for the scrap pile? Friend: Man, leaf spring is the best steel for a knife I am doing you a favor. ME: (After a long sigh) Amazing, every word in that sentence was wrong...

I have been around long enough that you guys know my heart is in the right place even though I do not always give the best most correct answers so I am confident that you will not kick me out of the cool kids table for sharing my opinion on recycled steel. As a blacksmith, I reuse steel all of the time, its one of the main things that drew me to blacksmith work in the first place. I love taking something worthless and creating useful art from it. So yes, I have used leaf spring to make a variety of tools for my shop and friends. I have made experimental blades for myself from leaf springs. I have a Wakizashi I made form a 79 CJ5 leaf spring that will cut down small trees like an axe. What I will not do is sell a leaf spring blade to a stranger. I just cannot take the chance on the steel having micro cracks or other problems that will make me look bad. The only exception is I have had someone ask me to make a knife from a specific leaf spring because it came from his Dad's old Jeep. I took that job (because I thought it was cool) with the understanding that I would not warranty the steel. The handle and stuff was warrantied but not the steel. He was good with that and knew full well the details of the exchange.

FIF has lasted longer than I thought it would and it has done some good stuff for the industry for sure but it has also done some damage. Any way its a good story.

 

[John Wilson]

agree on all points.

 

[Jon Buescher]

I thought I would share a funny conversation I had recently with a good friend. As a disclaimer, the friend is a good guy and he meant no harm by this exchange it just struck me as an example of what I call the 'FIF mentality'. Friend: Chris, I had to replace one of the leaf springs on my truck, do you want the old ones? ME: If you are not going to use it for anything, I will put it in my materials storage pile for a future project. Friend: No I have no use for it. ME: Ok thanks, I will take it. Friend: All I want In return is for you to make me an Ulu blade like them Alaskans use. ME: Wait, you want me to do $200 plus worth of work for a worn out leaf spring that is headed for the scrap pile? Friend: Man, leaf spring is the best steel for a knife I am doing you a favor. ME: (After a long sigh) Amazing, every word in that sentence was wrong...

I have been around long enough that you guys know my heart is in the right place even though I do not always give the best most correct answers so I am confident that you will not kick me out of the cool kids table for sharing my opinion on recycled steel. As a blacksmith, I reuse steel all of the time, its one of the main things that drew me to blacksmith work in the first place. I love taking something worthless and creating useful art from it. So yes, I have used leaf spring to make a variety of tools for my shop and friends. I have made experimental blades for myself from leaf springs. I have a Wakizashi I made form a 79 CJ5 leaf spring that will cut down small trees like an axe. What I will not do is sell a leaf spring blade to a stranger. I just cannot take the chance on the steel having micro cracks or other problems that will make me look bad. The only exception is I have had someone ask me to make a knife from a specific leaf spring because it cam from his Dad's old Jeep. I took that job (because I thought it was cool) with the understanding that I would not warranty the steel. The handle and stuff was warrantied but not the steel. He was good with that and knew full well the details of the exchange.

FIF has lasted longer than I thought it would and it has done some good stuff for the industry for sure but it has also done some damage. Any way its a good story.

agree, My Dad had some leaf springs he gave me after they BROKE, and asked if I could use them. I told him that they broke because they had cracks and that I was sure they were full of small cracks, I will most likely just take them to the scrap yard when I make my next trip to discard junk. and yeah I get tired of people wanting me to make them a knife that takes me forever and probably $40 in materials and consumables at a minimum then want to pay $50 for it. So yeah I agree with what you're saying whole heartedly, although I am an infant in this hobby so....

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

FIF has done FAR more damage to the Custom Knife world/industry than good. I suppose if you can use elevating the awareness of custom knives overall, that MIGHT be the only good point I could find, but the manner in which it's been done, and all the BS/Urban legend crap that it's created and permeated the modern knife community with, and has set the industry back decades in terms of truth about, and quality of the product(s).

I don't know about anyone else, but I have always kept a eye on the selling prices of custom knives, from various sources..... all one has to do to realize just that side of the damage FIF has caused, is to look/see how there are literally hundreds of "custom" knives being sold every day, for less then the cost of the handle material on the knife!

I, and many other custom knifemakers have had to deal with similar situations as Chris.... especially people calling/emailing asking for "A big chopping knife like on Forged in Fire!" and then being told you're full of #*^% when you quote a price of more then $100. I routinely get phone calls from locals whom I do not know, asking me..... "How much would you charge for a hunting knife, if I bring you some steel and a deer antler"? I've gotten so fed up with that one, that my answer has become..... "Double what I would normally charge."

Sorry, I just get flustered and angry whenever the FIF subject come up..... It has created so many knifemaker "hacks" and so many KSOs, that the genre's/profession's entire personality/perception has been totally warped in the eyes of the general public.

 

[Chris Railey]

genre's/profession's entire personality/perception has been totally warped in the eyes of the general public.

That's what I call the "FIF mentality". In my observation, 85% or more of the people who fail out in the first round of that show have absolutely no idea what a fuller is. Fullering is like blacksmithing 101 stuff, a first day lesson. Yet these people just bang away with the drawing dies expecting the billet to magically get wider until they end up with a billet of heat treating foil three feet long. Even a rounding hammer held at the proper angle will fuller (widen) material and that too is a day one lesson. Any how...rant over.

 

[chrisstaniar]

FIF has definitely set some pretty dumb expectations. About the only plus has been maybe people are a little more aware of the custom knife industry in general.

The junk knives coming from both overseas and local with the sub $100 price tag for "damascus" (or whatever steel it might be) is really hurting things. Both in terms of quality and price.

I get the standard questions all the time - "Hey, I bought this Damascus knife on Etsy for $50. What do you think?" or "A local guy made us 2 Damascus knives and only charged us $200, why are your knives so much more?".

 

[fitzo]

I swear, my wife knows more than many of those poor Johns. She has taken to yelling at them before they go ahead and make the mistake.

I agree with pretty much everything's been said here. Being out of touch, it's hard to imagine what all damage it's done, but after watching it, it doesn't take a lot to know there will be repercussions.

When I first found FiF on the tube, I watched one or two episodes and the informed disdain set in. As it should. It gives a horribly bad impression of the craft. But, then, a knifemaker friend told me to watch it as a cheesy/campy reality show that just happened to use us as the "actors". And the crazy premise of scrambling to complete impossible tasks generated to make you produce crap. The entire objective was to somehow rise above the forced mediocrity. Now it's more acceptable. And, it's helped me get interested again, not to mention watch something I'll never be physically capable of again.

Did it lose out when any name ABS 'smiths quit coming on the show and consigned it to mediocrity? I think so, but I don't blame them; and, there's some pretty cool stuff being done in minimally equipped home shops. First time I saw Burt on there, I turned to Nanc and said, "WTF is he doing here? Trying to embarass himself?" Apparenty the answer was ,"Yes." Pity. And slowly they quit coming.

Interesting show. Flawed. Still, hot steel tripped my trigger. And, yes, you HAVE TO dry the White Out. (Why doesn't this place have a facepalm emoji?)

Pity it has f'd over a lot of highly skilled, good people.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

I can remember in it's beginnings, there was a lot of talk about it among ABS smiths, with the thought in mind that it could be a great presentation tool for the ABS and the forged blade.

I do know that there were a number of Mastersmiths who were contacted by the casting dept early on, and most were willing to go on the show, with the ABS cause in mind...... at least until we saw the first few episodes, and more importantly, the contracts.

It was suspicious that the casting dept. for the show was reluctant and evasive when asked to send the contract for review (yes, we all were talking to each other...almost daily). The contract I received (after having to badger them for it) had a significant amount of VERY FINE print on the back of the last page. Part of it stated that by signing, I would be agreeing to an number of things that I simply was not willing to do. Among them was that if I were one of the winners, I would be required to pay a percentage of my gross knife sales for the next 3 years, to the FIF Production company.

That alone cut the numbers of ABS smiths, and especially those with MS ratings to near nothing. Then after seeing what the show was all about, how subjective the testing/judging, and the poor way it portrayed Bladesmithing, that was pretty much the end for most of us.

I am aware of one ABS rated smith, who until appearing on the show, was a full time Bladesmith, but after loosing, that individual's knife sales plummeted to the point of of being forced to go out and get a job, and resort to part time Bladesmithing. As far as I know, the person never has recovered to full time Bladesmithing, and still works a "regular" job, punching a clock every day.

Here's the way I did, and still do look at being a contestant, from the perspective of being an ABS Mastersmith...

I have worked hard, gotten to the top of my craft, and spent three plus decades establishing myself, my knives, and most importantly, my reputation, within the cutlery world. Why would I even consider going onto a show of this type, where there is a 75% chance of me loosing, and only a 25% chance of winning.... with the odds stacked in favor of me suffering the same fate as the individual I mentioned above? In other words, nothing really to gain, and everything to loose...... It really is as simple as that.

Now, that being said, I did go to NY, and screen test for the judging spot for the season J. Neilson had carpel tunnel surgery, but was not chosen because, in the words of the casting dept., I wasn't "flamboyant enough" for the show. Looking back at it now, I am thankful it worked out that way.

 

[Gliden07]

Well I may go a bit against the grain here but here goes! A long time ago I wanted to learn how to make knives and Smith. I remember going to local Fairs and just standing there watching the Blacksmith for as long as my Parents would tolerate. Years go by and life happens, that intrest kept getting pushed back! I started watching FiF and was excited to see it every week. My poor Girlfriend (not unlike my parents had enough) one night says to me "Why do you watch this stupid show?" I responded with "I've always wanted to do that!", she said to me "Well why don't you do it! You never do anything for yourself"! I think she may be regretting that statement now! LOL!! That said I feel that it help me rekindle my intrest in building handmade knives. And I like to think im doing my best to make the Best knives I know how to and they will get even better with time! As far as the challenges go they are getting more and more far fetched and I can see were people that know nothing about Handmade knives can get misconceptions on the amount of time and care that goes into a well crafted handmade knife. When I started selling I remember that someone on here told me any custom knife was worth at least $150 no exceptions! I've stuck to that! To tell you the truth customers that want $100 knives are customers I don't want and have no problem telling them I can't sell for that amount!

 

[Chris Railey]

I would be required to pay a percentage of my gross knife sales for the next 3 years, to the FIF Production company.

WHAT!!!! Let me think about it.......ummmm NAW. That is insane. They do not think much of themselves do they. You could not hook a logging chain up to me and drag my big a$$ on that show with that condition. Thats crazy.

 

[fitzo]

I can remember in it's beginnings, there was a lot of talk about it among ABS smiths, with the thought in mind that it could be a great presentation tool for the ABS and the forged blade.

I do know that there were a number of Mastersmiths who were contacted by the casting dept early on, and most were willing to go on the show, with the ABS cause in mind...... at least until we saw the first few episodes, and more importantly, the contracts.

It was suspicious that the casting dept. for the show was reluctant and evasive when asked to send the contract for review (yes, we all were talking to each other...almost daily). The contract I received (after having to badger them for it) had a significant amount of VERY FINE print on the back of the last page. Part of it stated that by signing, I would be agreeing to an number of things that I simply was not willing to do. Among them was that if I were one of the winners, I would be required to pay a percentage of my gross knife sales for the next 3 years, to the FIF Production company.

That alone cut the numbers of ABS smiths, and especially those with MS ratings to near nothing. Then after seeing what the show was all about, how subjective the testing/judging, and the poor way it portrayed Bladesmithing, that was pretty much the end for most of us.

I am aware of one ABS rated smith, who until appearing on the show, was a full time Bladesmith, but after loosing, that individual's knife sales plummeted to the point of of being forced to go out and get a job, and resort to part time Bladesmithing. As far as I know, the person never has recovered to full time Bladesmithing, and still works a "regular" job, punching a clock every day.

Here's the way I did, and still do look at being a contestant, from the perspective of being an ABS Mastersmith...

I have worked hard, gotten to the top of my craft, and spent three plus decades establishing myself, my knives, and most importantly, my reputation, within the cutlery world. Why would I even consider going onto a show of this type, where there is a 75% chance of me loosing, and only a 25% chance of winning.... with the odds stacked in favor of me suffering the same fate as the individual I mentioned above? In other words, nothing really to gain, and everything to loose...... It really is as simple as that.

Now, that being said, I did go to NY, and screen test for the judging spot for the season J. Neilson had carpel tunnel surgery, but was not chosen because, in the words of the casting dept., I wasn't "flamboyant enough" for the show. Looking back at it now, I am thankful it worked out that way.

That's a good post, Ed. Real ballsy of 'em about the percentage of earning clause. And wise for the really successful 'smiths to stay home and don't succumb to the competitive temptation. You are so correct about everything to lose.
Thanks for the insights!

 

[chrisstaniar]

Among them was that if I were one of the winners, I would be required to pay a percentage of my gross knife sales for the next 3 years, to the FIF Production company.

I am aware of one ABS rated smith, who until appearing on the show, was a full time Bladesmith, but after loosing, that individual's knife sales plummeted to the point of of being forced to go out and get a job, and resort to part time Bladesmithing. As far as I know, the person never has recovered to full time Bladesmithing, and still works a "regular" job, punching a clock every day.

Heh heh, thanks for the laugh on that one. The words I would have said to them are not fit to type.

It could be a cool show. If they actually showed someone making a truly good knife or sword (in detail) and not someone trying to make some crap knife in 2 hours so they can slam it against a steel drum or whatever. But I guess that wouldn't be good TV.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

FIF has done FAR more damage to the Custom Knife world/industry than good....

... Sorry, I just get flustered and angry whenever the FIF subject come up..... It has created so many knifemaker "hacks" and so many KSOs, that the genre's/profession's entire personality/perception has been totally warped in the eyes of the general public.

Before any of the folks involved were involved, months before the pilot episode, somebody had to bring the initial production crew up to speed on what bladesmithing even was. There was lots of time on the phone with producers developing the concept. Folks have no idea what the original contract all involved, it certainly wasn’t what was presented to others later on. What Ed refers to sounds like what survived of the section called “ancillary revenue”, which stated that if the person cast as the MS judge saw an uptick in sales of merchandizing that they currently had, yes- merchandise that you were selling before you even signed that contract, they got 10% of that! And, so they could make sure of it, that contract also gave them the ability to audit your books or tax records at any time to prove there was an uptick that they got a piece of.

The bladesmith who was involved in those early stages refused to sign until certain parts of the contract were removed, but saw where the train wreck was going so it made it easier to hold out. Another bladesmith was found to do the job. The original person dodged a serious bullet to his credibility, reputation and career, but has serious regrets and shame for having a part in spawning such a malignancy to the craft that he loves. Among the contracts never signed was the NDA (non-disclosure agreement), so the only thing keeping him from talking about it all is his embarrassment for having been involved.

Ed, I continue to applaud you for openly saying what so many are thinking, but just swallow the bile for the sake of the feelings of people who feel differently. The one positive that is pointed out ad nauseum is the public awareness it has brought to bladesmithing. I see that about as beneficial as bringing public awareness to a pre-contact people, with a rich culture and proud heritage, that are reduced to a tourist trap parody of themselves within a few years; trading their ancestral treasures for tennis shoes and cell phones. How great it will be when the last Yanomami is hanging his polyester costume in a Disney World locker before going home to get drunk while watching Forged In Fire. Heck, pride and dignity is so outdated compared to fifteen minutes of fame.

 

[scherf68]

I watched the show a couple times, more since I have been making knives. Most of my friends do not know all the shit that happens after quenching, show leaves a lot of steps out. Always get a kick out of that. Should just make a knife for one of my family members using the FIF method, when it breaks and has millions of scratches will just laugh and tell them that is what you wanted, a FIF knife. Tempering should be mentioned more on the show and why the final two contestants get 5 days.

 

[doug adams]

It seems like to me the ones helped the most are businesses that sells knifemaking/blacksmithing tools and supplies.

 

[Chris Railey]

The one positive that is pointed out ad nauseum is the public awareness it has brought to bladesmithing. I see that about as beneficial as bringing public awareness to a pre-contact people, with a rich culture and proud heritage, that are reduced to a tourist trap parody of themselves within a few years; trading their ancestral treasures for tennis shoes and cell phones. How great it will be when the last Yanomami is hanging his polyester costume in a Disney World locker before going home to get drunk while watching Forged In Fire. Heck, pride and dignity is so outdated compared to fifteen minutes of fame.

That is a great comparison. I had not thought of it along those lines.

 

[Bruce McLeish]

Sad , but oh so true.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

It seems like to me the ones helped the most are businesses that sells knifemaking/blacksmithing tools and supplies.

OH JEEZ!! You are so right! Not only that, but it has created so many "Fly by night" outfits..... I get emails and/or phone calls on almost a daily basis from people who have been "taken" by one of them..... forges, grinders, belts, and just about any other knifemaking asset/supply. Ripping people off, and at the same time giving a black eye to the legit providers/sources. GRRRR!!!

 

[Brad Walker]

Growing up, I was not allowed to have many knives because my dad was scared of them. That caused me to have a love affair with all things bladed. I have a large collection of knives. I call it my knife fetish. I have been a marital artist for most of my life and I can remember Doug Marcaida posting on FB that he was going to be on this show about knives. Knowing his reputation, it peaked my interest. My 2 sons and I started watching. One day my youngest said, "daddy, I think we can do that." So we built a make shift forge and with a railroad track anvil and a pair of tongs we were set. We had a blast and it was something we all did together, outside. We made hooks, leave, key chains, tons of RR spike knives and anything else we could think of. All because of that show. Today, and about 15K later, it is just my youngest and I working in the shop. It's the only activity my youngest enjoys. He is 15 and the picture below is his latest knife. I am super proud of the time and effort he puts into each piece. We stepped away from scrap steel a few years ago and only use blade steel now.

I say all of that to say, the show is what started us down this road. Yes, it's a horrible depiction of knife making but I love it for what it's done for me and my son. Knife making is a passion of mine and my son has that same passion. I do understand the frustration of knife makers who have been doing this for many years and their distain for the show. For us, it got us into the craft and with the help of Youtube and groups like this we have learned that the show, most of the time, shows you what not to do! Anyway, I thought I would give a different perspective of what the show means to at least me. Who is me? Just somebody who wants to be at the cool kids table one day!

 

[opaul]

How much would you charge for a hunting knife, if I bring you some steel and a deer antler"? I've gotten so fed up with that one, that my answer has become..... "Double what I would normally charge."

Now that is a funny line! Well done sir!