Abrasive paste

[izafireman]

I was looking at several US knife making sites last weeks and noticed one sold jar of oxide( I think ) abrasive pastes.

I think these pastes were to past onto stitched muslin wheels to make something similar to a wheel I make over here UK side using Lea abrasive compounds which utilises a stick that is solid but melts on the buffer wheel. I then use a solid stick of oxides mixed into a grease stick. When baked in an oven this all bonds together and you have a superb wheel for quickly sanding out scratches and to get the scratches all in the same direction. It also gives you a great base for hand sanding with finer compounds....I think my wheels are 80, 120, 180 240, stitched wheels and then 240 unstitched and 240 softer compound on an unstitched mop.

This is the stuff.

Polishing Bars - Products - LEA Manufacturing

Polishing bars also known as grease bars are the most efficient way of heading up polishing mops. They can be used for bright finishing, colouring, buffing, high lustre or mirror polishing

www.lea.co.uk

Now although they work great they are time consuming and messy to make, so does anyone know of the suppler that sells the pastes? They might turn out to be of no use as I tried another method before with grain grainlok paste and oxide powder but the stuff set like concrete and was to aggressive.

Any ideas?

Thanks

P

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

I know exactly what you're talking about. It is generally a water based solid "tube" of compound, that you apply to a spinning buffing wheel, then allow to dry overnight before use. It can also be had in thinned down versions in "jars". In theory, the compound breaks down as you use it....creating new cutting surfaces as you work.

Personally, I don't like the stuff, it's very messy, on a buffing wheel it doesn't last long at all, and I find it to be overly aggressive for the grit(s) advertised. I've tried it in various grits from 220 to 800. It heats up the work piece very quickly, and even the 800 throws sparks.

For the sake of consistency in use, and because it makes things just overall simpler, I prefer grease based, tube type compounds. Over the years I have whittled things down to only three compounds and two different type buffs in the shop...... the compounds are LEA Black with a sisal wheel for HEAVY cut and color. A green (NOT gree chrome) with 1200 grit alumina in it on a canton flannel buff (for guards/hardware), and Pink No-Scratch on loose Canton Flannel wheels for handl materials. Personally, I never buff blades. The buffers in my shop are for guards, fittings, handles, and to knock the burr off a freshly sharpened edge.

 

[izafireman]

I know exactly what you're talking about. It is generally a water based solid "tube" of compound, that you apply to a spinning buffing wheel, then allow to dry overnight before use. It can also be had in thinned down versions in "jars". In theory, the compound breaks down as you use it....creating new cutting surfaces as you work.

Personally, I don't like the stuff, it's very messy, on a buffing wheel it doesn't last long at all, and I find it to be overly aggressive for the grit(s) advertised. I've tried it in various grits from 220 to 800. It heats up the work piece very quickly, and even the 800 throws sparks.

For the sake of consistency in use, and because it makes things just overall simpler, I prefer grease based, tube type compounds. Over the years I have whittled things down to only three compounds and two different type buffs in the shop...... the compounds are LEA Black with a sisal wheel for HEAVY cut and color. A green (NOT gree chrome) with 1200 grit alumina in it on a canton flannel buff (for guards/hardware), and Pink No-Scratch on loose Canton Flannel wheels for handl materials. Personally, I never buff blades. The buffers in my shop are for guards, fittings, handles, and to knock the burr off a freshly sharpened edge.

Thanks for the reply.

The jar stuff sound like it might be similar to the first stuff I tried years ago but it set far too hard and had no give.

Have you tried the Lea Satene bars? Applied in the same way with the stop start method and with the glue but after it has set you break up the surface. I also only use my buffer for satin finishing as I prefer satin blades with the scratch marks all going length ways, though I do vary things from time.

I really do like the Satene bars even though a tad messy as the give a lovely consistent directional finish which I find perfect to hand sand from there , 400 grit upwards.

Yes they do heat up but I mainly use Elmax tempered at 500c but even so I still cool the blanks I am working on.

https://www.hollisonsupply.co.uk/satene-greaseless-grit-compound.html this is the stuff I use which is like a thick jelly with grit suspended in it.

The Lea black on the sisal is another I use, great for getting scratch marks out , though it struggles on Elmax, hence why I us the Satene on that.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

The stuff listed in that link is exactly what I was referring to! We are on the same page.

When it comes to buffing, and the use of compounds, all too often folks wrongly assume buffing can or should be used as a "shortcut" for removing scratches on blades. Most experienced makers would say that if you're using a buffing, trying to remove scratches, then you're not sanding enough....either on the machine, by hand, or both.

When it comes to achieving that "directional finish", usually referred to as a "brushed finish", the most commonly used tool/abrasive is a scotchbrite "surface conditioning" or "non woven" belt. Just all around a far better choice for achieving that type of finish, with zero mess, and far less heat buildup. The belts can be had in 4 different "grits"..... Course, Medium, fine, and Very Fine. I'm not sure how available they are in the UK.....but they're pretty common in the US. Here's a link to where I buy.....and I generally will only buy the Fine, and/or Very Fine. The Medium and the Coarse will throw sparks, and heat thing up badly. https://trugrit.com/product/2-x-72-sb-avfn-scotch-brite-aluminum-oxide-very-fine-low-stretch/ (those are the actual surface conditioning belts. USA Knifemaker also sells the "non woven" variety, but I've not been able to catch them in stock. https://usaknifemaker.com/non-woven-2-x72-klingspor.html

I doubt it would mean much to you, being in the UK and having to find/buy belts, but for anyone located in the US who buys belts, if you're not considering or buying from Tru-Grit, you're likely paying more than you have to. Tru-Grit buys more belts from the manufacturers, and supplies more belts to retailers then anyone in the US. They only deal in premium abrasives, so you get top quality abrasives, for a lower cost then even the manufacturers can offer. At one time or another, I've had pretty much every abrasive manufacturer contact me, and ask if I would like to buy direct..... when they find that I buy from Tru-Grit..... they simply say, "Oh! Tru-Grit buys and sells so many belts, even we can't match their prices." Another perk that isn't advertised with Tru-Grit is that they will offer 30 days same as cash terms. You just have to give them your registered business name, and ask to be put on 30 days same as cash (they will only do it after you proved you'll pay on time...which means you need to pay up front for your first order or two). Sorry, got off on a spree there.

 

[izafireman]

Interesting as I find the wheels are better than the belts as I have conditioning belts but I prefer to use the scurf wheels. Another thing o interest is the wheels only throw sparks when I am using 52100 but not with the Elmax. I know what you mean about buffering out scratches as from my experience it only makes them worse as they scream out at you. The lea wheels defiantly work well on the Elmax but admittedly I do had sand after.

Also when you tried the Lea Satene to make scurfs did you break up the surface of them with a heavy weight such as the edge of a chisel first.

I know the lea compound is used extensively in when making jewellery as it was a jeweller who put me onto the stuff.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

when you tried the Lea Satene to make scurfs did you break up the surface of them with a heavy weight such as the edge of a chisel first.

I did. I'm sure things vary from shop to shop....but for me, it was just way more fuss, mess, and hassle to use, then the results were worth. That doesn't mean it's not a good product, it only means it's not a good product for me.

Another thing o interest is the wheels only throw sparks when I am using 52100 but not with the Elmax

Not really surprising..... those are two totally different animals. The main reason you don't see sparks from the Elmax is it's vanadium and Chromium contents content, together, in those quantities, they act similar to Moly.....not only keeping the grain size small at high heat, but also helps prevent deformation at high temps (which is generally Moly's function), and as a byproduct doesn't throw sparks. 52100, in many ways, is it's own unique steel. Being more of "on the fence" between a plain carbon and alloy steel. It will usually throw sparks is you look at it cross eyed!

 

[izafireman]

I did. I'm sure things vary from shop to shop....but for me, it was just way more fuss, mess, and hassle to use, then the results were worth. That doesn't mean it's not a good product, it only means it's not a good product for me.


Not really surprising..... those are two totally different animals. The main reason you don't see sparks from the Elmax is it's vanadium and Chromium contents content, together, in those quantities, they act similar to Moly.....not only keeping the grain size small at high heat, but also helps prevent deformation at high temps (which is generally Moly's function), and as a byproduct doesn't throw sparks. 52100, in many ways, is it's own unique steel. Being more of "on the fence" between a plain carbon and alloy steel. It will usually throw sparks is you look at it cross eyed!

Yes I totally agree with things varying from shop to shop...hence why I like this site in order to get great tips.
Without doubt it is a messy process and I only found out about it after a discussion with a jeweller when I explained that I wanted to speed up my process and was fed up with being ignored by 3m (terrible customer service in the UK, I don't think you could get worse) Anyway he told me that the 'old boys' taught him to use scurfs using Lea Satene. Now for me it was a revelation with regards to the Elamx I use due to it being so wear resistant.

I have a pal on who works on oil rig pipe lines and he was telling me they use Elmax for high pressure flanges. They trailed several tool steels for the application and they failed after 7000 hrs due to the pressures and the fact the liquid being pumped was sulphur hexafluoride in a slurry form and so highly aggressive. The Elmax components lasted 70,000 hrs.....so tough stuff.

I also learnt that the Elmax imported into the US is a different version than the European version with the addition of Sulphur as apparently it is easier to work in a lot of situations and the US market prefers it this way.

From my limited experience I have tried many products to help me when finishing Elmax and without doubt the Lea Satene Scurfs along with Diamond pastes on a small rotory airline sander were the best for the process I do to achieve my finishes. And the other big help was the tip from the guys on here which was to use Rhynowet papers with WD40 etc. But I have a pal who does everything on his 2 x 72 belts and maybe a stitched mop with the Lea black polishing stick, how he does it I don't know as I tried it and couldn't get the results he does.

The wheels need to be to be 'loaded up' on a regular basis, but I found that it you don't dwell on an area but keep moving in the same direction at a steady rate then they work well. I also learnt that as you move up the grits a gentle side to side motion initially prevents the tram lines, ie you don't actually get rid of the grit lines you used prior. I then go back to the back and forth motion, oh and allot of water dipping to keep thing cool. I have also found them very useful for blending in where an error has been made when grinding. But always always always I finish by hand sanding, normally I can start at 400 after using the scurf wheels.

I was using the wheels with 52100 yesterday and I was slightly perplexed at first due to the amount of sparks, I haven't used any of my 52100 blanks in several months and had forgotten just how much they spark. It felt a bit odd when I then did the same process with an Elmax blank and there were zero sparks.