Damascus schooling......or......newbie questions

Self Made Knives

Self Made Knives

Well-Known Member
Like everybody, I love the look of the pattern welded blades you pros are making. I hope to eventually make my own steel, but that's for another day, probably way off. So, I've been looking at buying some stock and the prices are all over the place. What's a newbie to do?

I see Chad Nichols steel for $300 and I see complete Damascus knives in catalogs for $30. Alabama Damascus for $180 and ebay Damascus for $20 that even claims it's made in USA.

How do you know what your getting? How do you heat treat it? Are most of these billets already hardened? Why such a crazy price range? As a new maker, I can't buy $300 Damascus and sell a knife for $500, don't have the reputation or customer base for that. Should I just forget it and keep using regular steel?

School me, please!
 
How do you know what your getting?
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This is definetly an area where you get what you pay for! I KNOW you can trust what you get from Chad. Generally damascus of any quality is going to be $12+ per INCH.

How do you heat treat it?
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Its base on the steels contained in the damascus. Reputable suppliers of damascus will provide specifics as to the steel types their damascus contains, and heat treat formulas for what you buy.

Are most of these billets already hardened?
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Again, REPUTABLE suppliers will deliver it in annealed form.

Why such a crazy price range?
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Because the cheap stuff is basically junk. Made from inferior materials, and in many cases it will not harden. There was a prolific damascus supplier a few years back who dumped literally tons of junk damascus on the market, and many unsuspecting indivdiuals gobbled it up. I got inundated with emails and phone calls asking me how to heat treat it......when it count not be.

As a new maker, I can't buy $300 Damascus and sell a knife for $500, don't have the reputation or customer base for that. Should I just forget it and keep using regular steel?
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This is where YOU must make a critical decision....that being...are you willing to put your name on a blade made of potentially inferior damascus....and possibly have it come back to bite you later? OR do you purchase the best material, take the hit on recovering your costs, and look it as a push towards the future?

I can only offer my own opinion....that being to do your homework, and do not try to cut corners to be able to say "This is DAMASCUS steel!" Your current and future reputation within the knife world could very well rest on your decision. "Good" damascus stock is not cheap, and if it is, you should be suspicious.
 
Thanks Ed. One example I saw online earlier says its 1095 and 15n20 and is at 58 rc. It's selling for around $2 a foot. Seller is in US and implies it's from here, but I thought that price sounded awful low. I figured the stuff from Pakistan and India might be questionable. How about Alabama Damascus? They are a little cheaper than some. I've just had some requests for Damascus hunters and I really want to try it. But, like you said, can't afford to put out junk blades.
 
Alabama Damascus is good to go. Brad may not make the fancy patterned bars but you can get some pretty patterned bars from him. His Damascus hardens properly and makes good knives. He stands behind his product also.
If you ever have a problem he replaces the material to make it right.
Chad makes very nice material. Ponzio makes beautiful material. Metsala is also nice. Both Thomas shops makes good stuff. The last ones are on the high end for material. As you said it is what you can afford.
 
Anthony, while we can certainly compliment an individual's product we know and respect, it would be inappropriate (or libellous) to publicly call out a product we think less of. Those limitations weaken whatever we do have to say. Without calling out any individual products, I will add the other side - that you don't necessarily get good product by spending a lot.

Also, don't entirely discount the "junk" for the learning experiences. For instance, there are challenges like fitting scales to a full tang without scratching the etch - same thing polishing bolsters where they meet the tang or ricasso. These lessons are less expensive (but no different) on the stuff that's $2 an inch. Make it a letter opener so you don't have to worry too much about performance.

Enjoy the journey

Rob!
 
I've purchased Devin Thomas stainless Damascus over the years and have been very happy.

Our own Randy Haas and Son's , as in www.hhhcustomknives.com makes some excellent Damascus of Carbon steel. but you are looking 10-$25.00 an inch

Focus on making each one better than the last and after you have sold a few, then buy some decent Damascus.

I personally purchase a few bars from a gentleman in India years ago and it turned out to be excellent. This was over 17 years ago before the market on ebay etc was flooded with junk. I have no idea how to contact him now?

The technology of Wootz / Damascus steel originated in that part of the world so it can actually be quite good, the problem is finding a reputable seller of it these days.
 
my advice, focus on carbon steel bar stock like 1075 or 1084 for the first 10 or so knives and really learn to heat treat it. Then, move up to w2, and learn to heat treat it. You will need a grinder that is good, a heat treat oven, and a good forge. Sell knives to make money to buy these (each one costs about 10 knives). When you have done that, you will have a good set of basic skills, and you can move forward. Then, buy yourself a hydraulic press from Uncle Al at Riverside Machine, and get to making your own pattern-welded steel. Some people have done this in reverse, and focus on forge and press, and learn to make and sell good pattern-welded bar stock before they work on making knives. Either approach can work, and both focus on taking time to learn your craft and buying good tools along the way. You can do a lot of good work with a Grizzly while you are saving for your KMG or Bader or Burr King.
 
Rob, that's a good idea actually. If I get s stick of "unknown" I wouldn't sell it, I would just use it for show and tell.

Laurence, yeah, I've been drooling over Randy's stuff ever since I joined the forum. Since Boss sells Chads stuff in his store, I was using that for comparisons sake. There are a couple of other guys on here making some gorgeous stuff too.

Kevin, I've pretty much went the route you're describing. I'm working on about number 13 or 14 or so now and I've been heat treating O1 and 1095 with an oven just fine. I've made and HT'd one stainless blade as well. I've got a 2x72, mill, lathe, etc. I will eventually try pattern welding myself, but for me its a time thing, not really money. I just don't have time to open that facet of this hobby, so in order to meet some requests I thought I'd just try using someone else's stock for now.
 
I have seen a lot of guys buying Alabama Damascus. I know of one incident where something was not right and it wouldn't harden correctly. The difference is that you can call Brad and he will fix the problem. Try that with some guys from Pakistan selling on Ebay. Point being that I make my own damascus, but if I was a young knife maker and buying damascus bar stock, the Alabama product would be the cheapest stuff that I would even consider. As for that stuff from India and Pakistan and a previous comment, like I said after eating at Lombardi's Pizza in New York, they may have been the first pizzeria in the US, but the product has been improved since then. :3:
 
Hit up our very own randy with HHH. He has great Damascus and will most definitely take the time to walk you threw the process. Give him a shout.
 
I hope to try Randy, Chad, etc. someday, but for my first test of the waters, I ordered a piece from Brad at Alabama Damascus. He seems to have a good reputation for affordable stock. I was tempted to get some overseas stuff just to experiment with, but why waste the time and abrasives? What if I nailed it and made my best looking knife ever, but it had junk steel? That being said, I'll probably goof it up now.:1:
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I've known Brad Vice for quite some time and have used a lot of his Damascus. he does stand behind his steel, it hardens and etches nicely. if these will be your first Damascus knives you won't be disappointed.
 
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