Folders: Pocket clip position...and the safety/liability factor involved

EdCaffreyMS

EdCaffreyMS

"The Montana Bladesmith"
I also placed this thread in Shop Talk, but it doesn't seem to be getting much activity...so I thought the Folder forum might be the place for it...that way it can get input for both makers and end users.

This is something that I have thought/known for a while, but I wanted to ask why so many folder makers place pocket clips on their knives in a "pivot down"/ "Blade Tip Up" carry position?

In this position, the point of the blade point is facing up, and in both my thoughts and experience it is a dangerous thing, that opens users up to serious injury, and the maker to a world of liability.

I know it's popular, and I have folks ask for it all the time, but it is something I simply refuse to do.
To explain: First, way back, when I first started building folders, I sought advice from some whom I considered the best in the business. One folder maker, who is very well known, made a statement to me... "IF I ever catch you putting a pocket clip on a knife in a tip up configuration, I'll fly to Montana and kick your butt!" "It's dangerous and sooner of later your gona get sued over it."
Initially I listened, but as we humans generally do, I had to see for myself. So, I built myself a folder and put the pocket clip on the back, for a tip up carry. After a few months I was thinking that maker was full of it.....UNTIL, I was at a local ranch, working cattle on horseback. We had a roping "wreck" and I had to jump off the horse and grab for my knife. I'm assuming that all the jarring around from being on horseback had nudged the blade a bit to where the tip was exposed....when I jerked the knife out of my pocket, the tip caught on the inside of my jeans pocket, went through the jeans and into my thigh...all before I knew what was happening.
Long story short, I took 8 stitches (both internal and external) to close up the gash, and learned that placing a pocket clip on a folder for tip up carry can be dangerous, and if a similar situation ever occurred with a customer, it could mean serious trouble.

So, this brings me to my questions.....

1. For the makers who place pocket clips for a tip up carry, do you do it because it's popular? Do customers request it? Or, do you just do it that way because that's what other makers do?

2. Have you ever considered the liability involved...or even ever thought about it?

3. OR, Is the whole thing irrelevant, and the discussion a moot point?

I realized that many arguments can be made for the tip up carry, and some might feel they can build some characteristics into a folder that would keep this from ever happening, but that's not the point..... The point is, we as makers have created a trap for ourselves and the whole industry...all it's going to take it one knife buyer to get injured, and the flood gates will open. (MY PERSONAL OPINION)
I look at this situation just as I do those who take switchblades to shows in states where those knifes are illegal...all it's going to take is one maker getting caught, and every "custom" knifemaker will become suspect.

I'm not trying to start any arguments, nor am I intent on changing anybody's way of making knives. I'm just hoping to gain some insight on other maker's thought process on this, and maybe help someone who has never thought about how/why they do something.
 
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I have thought about this before Ed. I considered that the tip up position was potentially dangerous and normally build my folders tip down. I have built several tip up, but did not consider the economic consequences of a lawsuit when I did so. After I read your post, I thought about it more. I don't believe that I will make any more folders with the tip up. First, I would not want to be responsible for someone's injury and second, I don't have enough money to give other people some or all of it! Good post and I would love to hear other makers and users thoughts.
 
Pure ergonomics dictate that tip up is superior blade is nestled in the corner of the pocket and tip is not exposed at all , when deploying the knife you need not turn it around to use it is already in a deployment position when drawn.

Tip down exposes the tip and blade to the whole pocket interior and close to slicing open the femoral artery if the individual does not pay close attention. When it comes time for deployment the user has to turn the knife around to use it this sets up the potential to drop the knife as it is not a natural motion and or a secure dexterousness maneuver.

real liability lies in tip down configuration the blade is exposed and so to is the tip bot going against the natural flow of how a pocket is laird out and used.
 
I used to figure a folding knife was a pocket knife and that was it. When I started to make some larger ones I went to making belt pouches as well. I have made one of each with clips to carry with point up and point down. Those will be the last made with clips. I just figure that in either configuration they can be very bad newes to happen. Frank
 
End user here.

I like the tip up better I have one knife that is tip down. Giving it away. As soon as my son come to town.
 
For me, the tip up "tactical knife" Ninja phenomenum (SP?) the past several years started the tip up thing. For years that's the only position people wanted. I've always disliked it, but built what people bought.

The only way to be safe is not to use a clip.

Or, don't carry a knife.
 
Bssc said:
Pure ergonomics dictate that tip up is superior blade is nestled in the corner of the pocket and tip is not exposed at all , when deploying the knife you need not turn it around to use it is already in a deployment position when drawn.

Tip down exposes the tip and blade to the whole pocket interior and close to slicing open the femoral artery if the individual does not pay close attention. When it comes time for deployment the user has to turn the knife around to use it this sets up the potential to drop the knife as it is not a natural motion and or a secure dexterousness maneuver.

real liability lies in tip down configuration the blade is exposed and so to is the tip bot going against the natural flow of how a pocket is laird out and used.
Click to expand...
I agree with my friend here. He said it better than I could.
 
I don't want to start a big ruckus, but I am pretty sure that the femoral artery is on the inside of the thigh. I don't believe an open, point-down knife blade in a pocket would be anywhere close to the femoral artery. I think it is more likely that an open, point-up blade in the pocket would have a greater chance of hitting the artery, but even that is a stretch. The artery is almost on the inside of the leg and very deep. I had a medical procedure once where they went in through the femoral artery and they were playing around very close to my crown jewels!

I believe it is more likely that a person sticking their hand in their pocket might cut themselves on an open, point-up blade. The other possibility that I can see is that a person bending over could MAYBE cut either their thigh (open, tip-down) or their abdominal cavity (tip-up). Maybe a medical type could provide a more authoritative opinion?
 
I agree with Ron,Ive had both,tip up,tip down,open up on me.a stick in the thigh,and a cut finger.Both can be dangerous.
I think some of the folder makers need to come up with some kind of locking mechanism. Something safe!
Because they sure are handy.Pocket clip! fast! out of the pocket,you cant beat them!
 
Ed,
I make my folders with the clip positioned for tip up carry for many of the reasons that have already been stated. I think that in the situation you described it might not matter how the clip was positioned for the blade to open slightly.

Some things to take into consideration is how tight the detent of the knife is? Is it strong enough to keep the blade closed? I use a 1/16 steel ball, sometimes I use a 3/32 ball for added retention and larger surface area contact based on the size of the knife.

How tall is the thumbstud on the blade and is it higher than it needs to be. This could catch on the inside of your pocket and cause the blade to open slightly, especially if the clip is set for tip down carry.

I think that tip down carry lends itself to some opening methods like an elongated or round opening hole on a blade. Examples are Tom Mayo knives and Spyderco folders. You can grab the hole while taking the knife out of your pocket and don't have to turn the knife around to the position of function like with a thumbstud.

I have developed several opening methods that are integrated into the blade. They allow the blade to be opened easily and have nothing to catch on your pocket or print in your pocket.
 
Great input and conversation everyone! I think it's important to hear various points of view from both makers and users.... and the reasoning behind them. Sharing, even on a subject that can be kinda "touchy" for some, makes us all better in the end. I can't think of another forum that I could have posted this subject on, and not had a major ruckus going by now.....just goes to show how great the folks on KnifeDogs are!

The reason I brought this subject up was because not long ago, I had a phone conversation with another maker who called specifically to ask my opinion on this subject...and when I stated it, the individual wanted to argue with me. I did my best to remain calm and polite, but finally just told him...."If your mind is made up, why are you seeking my opinion?" After thinking about it, I believe he was questioning himself, and was wanting me to confirm his method was the "right" one.
Anyway, it's good to hear from everyone, and I think more discussions of this type can only make each of us, maker and user alike, more aware and wiser.
 
Ed great discussion question. I have been considering this a little as I am currently working on line of folding knives. Personally I have carried a tactical folder with clip pretty much every day since the mid 80's and have stabed my self three times. I have never had to have stiches though and I was aware of the knife deploying every time....And yes EVERY time it has been a tip up configuration. Twice with the same assisted opener and every time was because they got jarred open. I no longer carry tip up though I find it much faster a maybe better for flippers.

I have heard similar stories about others getting cut from tip down carry, however, the way the knife is removed from the pocket with tip down the blade threat is reduced. While the opposite is the case with tip up as the knife blade catches and moves towards locking. If one is unaware that the blade is deployed this is very very dangerous.

Would it make sense to have customers sign a waiver?...Maybe everone should sign one indicating that carrying a knife could be hazardous to your heath :biggrin: ...Personally, I would hope that if someone was sure that they wanted tip up config. that they would understand the inherent dangers but that is probably a naive view.

Eric
 
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