Good Forging Day

D

dublin lee

Member
Last week the FE gods were not with me. But today, welded 400 layers of alternating W's and straight lines with no flux. Kept the forge +or - 2350 and the layers welded up. Next week I will cut up the billet and restack them so the ends are upright and then will draw it out. Post pictures to follow. dlee:biggrin:
 
Good day yo forge

Cuz Bruce; I used no flux or anything but heat and the hammer. Started with 5160, L6, 5160, L6, 1065, L6, 1065, L6, 1095, L6 and repeated the process. Billet approximately 1x1/2, x 8 long. Drew it out to 16" and cut it in 8" bars. Now you must grind all forge scale off or I cannot get it welded. Drew out one bar on the W and other flat. Cut, ground and welded the W bar with L 6 inserts. Then drew it out to approx 16"x 1 1/2. Drew out the flat to 20" x 1 1/2. Ground and cut into 4" sections. Now I have 3ws and 4 flats and I alternated them and drew the billet out to 16".

Next week I will grind, cut to approx 2 1/2" sections. Reorient so the ends of the billet are straight up and down and then draw out.

Last summer Bob Krammer gave this demo at mt hood. His forge run to the cool end about 1900- 2000, a dull red. I did not think it would happen but his billet of 1095 and L 6 welded up, with no flux. Bob stated it was the heat that welded an the hammer drew it out. Our forge is bright yellow with a lot of dragon's breath and our billets for welding are soaked at 2340/2350, butter yellow. Will post pic next week. Dlee:57:
 
Still interested how you can be positive it will weld with no flux or at least kerosene. Scale can form even at low temps and prevent a weld.
 
Kerosene will work to keep oxygen from building scale and allow the weld. The fire should be on the propane rich side to further prevent scale. I,ve had good results but not 100% so I use flux for the initial stack and dry welding after that.
 
On the first weld, raw stock, I do not even grind the mill scale or rust off. All other welds you must grind the forge scale off. I cut and restacked the billet and it was welded solid. As Bob Krammer said it is time and temp. Bob believes the bonding occurs in the forge. We run at 2340-2360 and about 10-15 minutes at that temp. All I can say is try it and you will become a believer. Remember, only hit lightly the first two heats and only on the flat. The next heat bang way and you now can strike the edge. Call me or pm if you have additional questions. Dlee
 
J.D. Smith gave a demo of this technique at Swords Through the Ages last month. He welded up three
billets, one with just a spray of WD40 and two with nothing. Just tapped them on the press to set the
weld then went straight to the power hammer on edge to make Ws. All were rock solid with very clean
patterns.

He made sure to thoroughly soak the billets and said that forge atmosphere control is important to keep
oxygen away.

He also had a number of blades he recently made this way with great, very clean patterning.

He says that mill scale is fine to include in the layers but forge scale must be ground off before stacking
and rewelding (which he did successfully).
 
Good discussions here Dublin. I hope you don't think we are hi-jacking your thread. This is how we all learn.

Please post some pictures of your results good or bad
 
There is a very recent, very long thread HERE on the ABS forum about this very subject. Apparently the keys are long soak time in the forge in a very reducing atmosphere. Some have had success doing this even leaving forge scale ON. I'm very curious about this; everyone hates flux.
 
Cuz Bruce: If it was not for your generosity and posting your work, I and many others would be lost. Hijack all you want because that is how we all learn. Also, keep those tools rolling. Thanks all, hot forge and soak. From near the front veranda, dlee
 
I can chime in here as George and I "play" on Sat in my shop. We've been doing this for several+ yrs welding anything we could get into the forge. We've certainly welded and wasted more good steel than we'd ever like to admit, but it is all good as the learning experience has been amazing. That being said, MS Bob Kramer's demo at Mt. Hood this past Aug was a turning point for both of us. Bob used a kerosene soak prior to welding his billet in a forge that everyone would have guessed could've never been hot enough to weld in...but it did! Then we read that MS JD Smith welded w/o anything, including grinding the mill scale.
That through down the gauntlet, so we had to try. Hey, it works! We weld at at 2330 plus or minus after a soak for 10-15 mins with a light hit, then reheat and hammer a little harder. On the 3rd heat, it's good to go. We've made 'w' patterns w/no problems.
Dry welds can continue with grinding the forge scale off from there.
John
www.gearhartironwerks.com
 
Here's a pic recently posted on the ABS site of a 'bare back' billet of 1095/L6/5160 of our Sat follies. As an aside, we're both geriatrics, so at this point have the attitude that 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'. Everything is game! Thanks Bob and JD.
John

www.gearhartironwerks.com
 
Gearhart,
Are you using the kerosene soak at low heat to set the initial welds and then ramping to 2350f? I understand that welding temps are lower than we all thought at first but if you are soaking for 15 min at 2350f for the first weld, unprotected I think you have forge scale inclusion. Please give us your bottom line results if you will.

gearhartironwerks said:
I can chime in here as George and I "play" on Sat in my shop. We've been doing this for several+ yrs welding anything we could get into the forge. We've certainly welded and wasted more good steel than we'd ever like to admit, but it is all good as the learning experience has been amazing. That being said, MS Bob Kramer's demo at Mt. Hood this past Aug was a turning point for both of us. Bob used a kerosene soak prior to welding his billet in a forge that everyone would have guessed could've never been hot enough to weld in...but it did! Then we read that MS JD Smith welded w/o anything, including grinding the mill scale.
That through down the gauntlet, so we had to try. Hey, it works! We weld at at 2330 plus or minus after a soak for 10-15 mins with a light hit, then reheat and hammer a little harder. On the 3rd heat, it's good to go. We've made 'w' patterns w/no problems.
Dry welds can continue with grinding the forge scale off from there.
John
www.gearhartironwerks.com
Click to expand...
 
Bruce,
Not knowing where to start heat wise, I picked 2325-2330, and everything welded nicely w/o scale, or use of kerosene,WD40 etc. It was a totally dry weld. I haven't had time to explore what the bottom temp line is, but hopefully someone will chime in. Soak time seems to be the key. After lightly tapping (air hammer) for the initial weld, soak times can be less for the next hammering cycle, in my limited experience.
Several yrs ago, Tom Ferry told me at that time he was welding at 2250 with soak times longer than 30 mins.
At Mt Hood last Aug, Bob Kramer said he felt that the welding actually happens more in the forge.

Fwiw, my forge is horizontal with a blown ribbon burner and uses natural gas.

John Emmerling
http://www.gearhartironwerks.com
 
I'm still not convinced that you can get a perfect weld without protection of some kind from oxygen. A fire simply won't burn without oxygen so it is always there. I understand that most of the welding happens in the forge if the parts are so close together that they actually are touching and not allowing air to get between them. A "loose" stack of steel has gaps that would allow air between them and would build scale. There must be a reason flux was invented. Please continue this discussion. I,m just saying but listening to all views on the subject. I'd love to toss out my flux bucket but need more convincing first.
 
Cuz Bruce: try it, you'll like it. Now my pants do not catch fire as often. As far as the scale, after the first weld I grind, cut and stack. Weld the billet only on the tang end, back in the fire at 2350+-. No flux. Wait and soak. As you can see in John' s billet, it welds. From near the front veranda, dlee
 
I guess there's only way to find out. :) Those white lines in my billets caused by flux contamination are gone now. I haven't tried a feather w/o flux but will do so soon ...and hold my breath.
John
 
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