Heat treat question.

Here are just my two cents and they are probly not worth that but here it goes. My experience with the 10xx series steel are that they do need a fast quench as everyone knows. When using vegetable oil use it at room temp. Not Heated. When you quench use a large volume of oil like 2 or 3 gallons ( I think I have four in a large drum). When you quench do not hold the blade in the same place move it back and forth Not side to side But back and forth like you are cutting through the oil with the edge. Parks 50 also works great with the 10xx series steel.
Now here is the crazy part. You all my think this is crazy or B.S. but think what ya wish! I seen one of Bill Burkes blades he posted on another forum with a crazy awesome Hamon and I asked him if it was some W-2. He replied no it was 1095 in a straight water quench! He had clay coated for the hamon and went straight from nonmag. to the water and quenched. I am not exacly sure on how long he went in the water. I have heard some people say they go in the water for 2 seconds then out for 2 second and then back in until cool, but like I said I'm not exactly sure what he done in the water. So I thought My Hell I have to try that! I have done the 1095 in room temp water now about five or six times now and have not cracked a single blade. I did have one warp the tip slightly that was ground to thin to begin with.
I hope some of this jibberish helps take from it what you wish. I do think mineral oil and parks AAA are to slow for the 10xx steels though.
 
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Thanks for the honorable mention Shane.

for 1095 and w series steel I apply clay for the hamon in the desired pattern then go into the forge with the clay still wet and when I feel that the blade is at the proper temperature I quench it in room temp water and hold it there until it stops sizzling. I use water because i think it gives me more activity in the transition zone (the frosty wispy area). Yes I break a few blades but for me it is worth it. here is an older one that I did. the picture don't show th transitions well but it does show the hamon.
84637_6_b.jpg
 
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Shankmaker said:
I tried the mineral oil tonight.
The stuff I got from TSC is called mineral oil light.Its all they had.
I did the normal procedure and quenched in the mineral oil. Tempered at 350 for 2 hours.
I tested Rockwell at work tonight and got average of 56.
I still don't think its getting quenched fast enough.
What exactly are we looking for in a quench oil? We use a synthetic oil here at work that I thought about trying.Its used to keep work rolls cool and lubricated on a Cold mill.
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Well, that sucks. Light mineral oil sounds right. Did you warm the oil to about 130-140? It is counter intuitive, but warming the oil increases the quench speed by reducing the viscosity.

Did you agitate well?

Are you sure you don't have 1095, which requires a very fast quench?

If all else fails - a brine quench. The salt creates tiny explosions on the surface during the quench which helps control the vapor jacket, reducing warping and soft spots. I don't know off the top of my head the optimum salt concentration, but I believe it was 10%.

I'd try to pull out while still fairly hot (300-400) and finish in air if I could.

I have not tried a water quench in over 10 years. bleh.
 
I tried a couple different things tonight.

I quenched 1 knife in unheated mineral oil. It rock welled at 56 hrc.

I quenched the second in room temp water. I held for two seconds pulled out and dunked again. It rock welled at 57 hrc.

I checked a razor blade to see what it would read. It was 59 everywhere on the blade so the machine is probably correct. I don't have a way to calibrate in hrc since we mainly use the hrb scale.

One thing that may be affecting the test is the blade is not perfectly flat on the edge. But I still never did get a reading above 58.

All quenches were agitated tip to butt end.

I am just going to order the quench oil that was posted on another thread to eliminate that from the equation and do further testing.
I may try the unheated veggie oil tomorrow just for fun.
 
Shankmaker said:
I tried a couple different things tonight.

I quenched 1 knife in unheated mineral oil. It rock welled at 56 hrc.

I quenched the second in room temp water. I held for two seconds pulled out and dunked again. It rock welled at 57 hrc.

I checked a razor blade to see what it would read. It was 59 everywhere on the blade so the machine is probably correct. I don't have a way to calibrate in hrc since we mainly use the hrb scale.

One thing that may be affecting the test is the blade is not perfectly flat on the edge. But I still never did get a reading above 58.

All quenches were agitated tip to butt end.

I am just going to order the quench oil that was posted on another thread to eliminate that from the equation and do further testing.
I may try the unheated veggie oil tomorrow just for fun.
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Thanks for all the info from everybody.
 
Are you trying to rockwell a blade on the bevels? most of the makers I know do their rc test on the ricasso area. It is my understanding that to getaccurate reading you need nearly paralell sides but I not know that for sure. Maybee you could try hardening just a small rectangular coupon of you steel and test it.
 
Are you sure that your Rockwell tester is set up right. You need a diamond penetrator and unless it is the new digital type, you need the proper counter weights (at least on the one that I have that is the case) Also you can't properly test a razor blade on a normal rockwell tester, You will not get a proper reading. you need a thin section Rockwell tester for something like a razor blade. In the past I have used a HSS lathe tool as a calibration block, If I remember correctly they are in the range of 62-65 RC. Also you need to grind off the decarb skin left after quenching and make sure that both sides of the blade are smooth, parallel and flat so that they lay perpendicular to the penetrator.

Jerry
 
Yes the machine is set up properly with a diamond penetrator on the hrc scale. I work in a steel mill and our product is tested on these machines. This machine is digital and will test on all hardness scales I am aware of.testing a razor blade is not a problem.
I have been testing all over the knife. On the flats above the hollow is where I have been taking my usable readings. I have tried on the edge but like mentioned it's probably not accurate.
 
Shankmaker said:
Yes the machine is set up properly with a diamond penetrator on the hrc scale. I work in a steel mill and our product is tested on these machines. This machine is digital and will test on all hardness scales I am aware of.testing a razor blade is not a problem.
I have been testing all over the knife. On the flats above the hollow is where I have been taking my usable readings. I have tried on the edge but like mentioned it's probably not accurate.
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Ok, just covering the bases, :D
Jerry
 
Jerry Shorter said:
Ok, just covering the bases, :D
Jerry
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No problem man. I appreciate the input.
You made some great points about setting the machine up properly.

Bill Burke. Thats a good idea about testing just small coupons instead of the whole knife. I am going to start my testing like that.

Does anybody know what the rockwell should be straight out of the quench?
 
Shankmaker said:
No problem man. I appreciate the input.
You made some great points about setting the machine up properly.

Bill Burke. Thats a good idea about testing just small coupons instead of the whole knife. I am going to start my testing like that.

Does anybody know what the rockwell should be straight out of the quench?
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I'm not certain, but I would expect 1080 full hard to be about HRC 65.
 
Yup, I looked it up - mid 60's if done perfectly.

Ultra fine grain, too high or too low of an austenitizing temperature, too short a soak, or too slow a quench all reduce the hardenability.

Large grain improves hardenability, but it is not normally done due to the detrimental effect on other properties.
 
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