How to prevent this? fit/finish question

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OkieCowboy

Well-Known Member
Hello all..new guy here...and new to knife making.
trying to figure out what I did so I don't repeat it..
ok at the point was going to epoxy the scales on and put in the pins... I had had them on several time to do some rough sanding etc.. had not seen or noticed a poroblem..

I lay everything out..get a few q-tips, raid the wifes make up stuff and get her acetone nail polish stuff since that was the one thing I forgot.. mix up the epoxy, put it on one scale put it in place..no problem..I make sure everything is nice and clean.. I slide the pins into place.. Ok now I flip it over put on some more epoxy and try and slip the scale down over the pins sticking up...it wont go..it's off on the center hole..no matter how i cuss and yell..it just aint gonna go..it's close...but...no

so..I am running out of time..the epoxy timer is on....i enlarge the center hole a tad..just enough for it to slip down over it ( don't ask me why I didn't pull pins or anything like that) now once the scale has cleared the end of the pin...its extra large hole has epoxy oozing out of it...I clean it up the best I can..and clamp it up...

now the clamps are off...and the center hole is awful..it's as if the drill bit wallered around in it a bit or something.. and it has epoxy in it...so there isn't gonna be much I can do i am afraid..

these scales have been interesting all along as it is...my Amish neighbors lost their grandpa last year and are in the process of tearing down his house..this house was built at least in the early 1900's and they wanted a knife built from the hardwood flooring from the house... and the key word there is HARD wood...

but my question is...

Is there a order for drilling the holes or pinning things up? or did I just have it out of whack... ( I know everything after that was pure panic mode on my part) if this does ever happen again,,I have heard of the superglue and sawdust thing...not sure how that all works..but can I fill the hole with epoxy and sawdust as well?

I do want to thank everyone in advance for any answers and help given...it's pretty awesome that a total new guy has a way to ask questions of makers of the skill levels I have seen here....
 
I now that when your working on cars you torque from the center out so it may be the same with pins? Idk am doing my first knife w pins now but am usin two pins.
 
So, it's often been said that knifemaking is, in large measure, about fixing the things that don't work out. Step one is to get the pin out. Heat from a soldering pencil might be enough to accomplish that. Step two is to re-purpose the hole for either a larger head corby - or maybe even a large mosaic pin.

Rob!
 
New guy here to and I could sense the panic reading your story I have been there myself. What I do and have no clue if it's right is to lay my handle material on the drill press with knife on top of that next I drill one hole and place a pin in it. Then I move to the opposite end of the handle and drill that hole and put a pin in it, next I move to the center hole and drill it. After all my holes are drilled in one scale I flip it over with my drilled scale on top blade in the middle and my Un drilled scale on the bottom now. Clamp it down and remove one pin and drill through the already drilled scale into the undrilled scale and put a pin in it. Then I move on to the others doing the same. Also I make sure I keep my pins in order if that way I know that pin fits good in that hole before glue up.
I hope that all makes sense. It seems to be making my glue up go smoother and less stressful.
JP
 
Without being there it's hard to tell what the exact problem was. However, I do my work with a hand drill. Doing it like that, if your hole is just a little bit angled (not perfectly straight up and down) through the 2 scales and the tang, it can make fitting very difficult. kinda like a bullet's trajectory from a gun, if you're off a little at 10 feet, you're going to be off a good bit more at 100 yards.

I might be off here so just ignore this if I'm assuming you do it the hard way like me. But this is how I do it to insure this doesn't happen, because I've had it happen before.

Drill the holes in the tang a little bigger than you need. Clamp one scale to the tang. Going through the tang, drill through the handle material. Fit pins to make sure they work with that side. Leave pins in, flush with tang. remove clamps and reclamp the other scale onto the whole. Still clamped, remove one pin and drill from the handle through the hole in the tang and into the second scale. Pin that one completely through. Still clamped, remove next pin and repeat. when you're done, the pins should all be in and you can remove the clamps.

Now, when you go to epoxy, put the pins through the first handle material and just barely sticking out of the other side of the tang. Then apply epoxy to that scale and put the tang back down over the pins. Epoxy the next scales and it should fit over the pins that are only slightly sticking out of the tang. Hammer the pins the rest of the way through so they're all the way through. clamp it up to dry.

Even if you're off just a little bit with the angle of the pins, you can have problems trying to get it to fit over the entire length of the pin.
 
I had a similar issue... turns out the table on my drill press was just a TINY bit cocked (i mean like an incredibly small amount, couldnt see it with the eye, took a angle gauge to see it)... minor adjustment made, no more pin issues... and now I check it every time I drill a hole. Saves a LOT of time in the long run LOL :)
 
After looking at it..the best I can figure is something close to what N.N said regarding the bullet trajectory, I am thinking perhaps I had one end clamped and one end not when drilling the scale or something..if I put the pins in the correct order it worked, out of order it was just enough angle to not go
 
I've done this several times.
You have to mark the scales clearly showing which ones go on the right side, left side and which way is front and up immediately after drilling.
Then just before glue up, you trial fit just to make sure things are right. Then disassemble and lay out your parts to make it easy to reassemble quickly.

Almost every time I have not marked both scales clearly right after drilling, I have regretted it.
its amazing how fast epoxy can set up when things don't fit exactly.
 
BossDog said:
its amazing how fast epoxy can set up when things don't fit exactly.
Click to expand...

faster than working in a garage in the middle of Mississippi in July, lol....I had to learn to work quick fast and in a hurry when 5 minute epoxy becomes 1 minute goop. The things I've glued to a knife handle unintentionally: c-clamps, the mixing stick, my fingers (one of my first knives came with the disclaimer that "yes, that's my actual fingerprint...skin and all". I almost forgot about that.), workbench, leather scraps.....It's always been an adventure. I'm going to enjoy using g-flex from now on.
 
Thanks all for the replys...thinking now..I am going to drill it out..and replace it with a bigger pin...or perhaps a plug made from some exotic wood..
 
One good thing about this knife making problems and such...with the help of this forum...it's a self correcting problem...if you can figure it out... you probably won't repeat it
 
All pretty much good advice.

Sharp drill bits drill straight holes, dull ones wander and make holes that won't line up!!!!

I always mark/index the handle pieces so there is no mix up.

I do a final dry assembly to make sure there are no gremlins hiding in the closet!!!!!!!!!!

Disassemble after the last dry run, layout everything in an order of re-assembly!

Here is some advice I got one time, the pin holes in the handle material need to be proper size and those in the knife handle/metal can be over sized, it allows for epoxy to flow in and around the pins, making for a more complete glue-up.
I will often rough up the center surface of my pin material and depending on what I am working on will let the pins stick out proud of the material a small amount. Once the epoxy is set you can file off the excess, or grind off the excess. When grinding watch the heat or you will get a scorch mark in the handle material around the pin.

Another piece of advice from a seasoned veteran was epoxy is for holding, pins are for shock! Meaning even if your epoxy is doing it's job a drop on to a hard surface the shock can break that bond sometimes. Another way to help stop shock problems is holes drilled through the handle and the back side of the handle material allows for internal bonding from side to side of the epoxy, and into the handle material!

And my last piece of advice, get rid of the five minute stuff. I like to have at least 30 min. epoxy to work with it allows for making sure everything is lined where I want it and I can still clean off any run offs up!

Sometimes you have to learn to make an OH OH, look like and intentional, such as the hole problem! The mark of a true craftsman is being able to make any mistake you have made not show to others eyes!!!
 
thanks! yeah.. lesson learned on the epoxy type...in fact I found another thread here that went into great detail about epoxy types.. so won't be making that mistake again
 
OKie,
Most of this has already been covered but ,
Here are the things I do so that I don't have those problems any more or at least a lot less of!:biggrin:

I put an Arrow on the top of the scales at the front with black marker with 3-5 points on it so I can see both the front and sides, like this. <<<<-----.

Before I mix up any epoxy I put the whole knife together and then take it back apart TWICE.
Put each Bolt "I use Loveless" and mosaic pins, scales etc in a determined place. If any of the holes, pins etc is giving me problems it now time to fix the issue.

I use 30 min. G-Flex Epoxy only these days.

I also have a quart size can of Acetone, plenty of fresh washed old T-shirts at the ready. Always use Acetone in a well ventilated place. The fumes give me a headache. I am now back in my garage and keep the vehicle door open and the fan on. The epoxies we use are nasty. When you get this stuff on your skin. It ends up in your liver. Once in a while won't hurt you. But over a number of years all of this stuff we expose ourselves to can add up and give us problems later in life.

Last, I have the black 5mil thick disposable Mechanics gloves from Harbor Frieght. I usually go through four gloves for one knife or session for multiples . I go through one each for the butter up and assembly part, and then put on new gloves for the acetone wipe down so I am not sticking more epoxy on the knife in one hand or the T-shirt and actone one in the other.

I watch after for about 15 20 minutes to make sure no epoxy squeezes out onto the steel at the from of the scales because I make three part culinary knives.

Have Fun!
 
Great Advice...again..thanks...it sure is nice to have some of this wonderful info ...saves a whole lot of trouble
 
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