Lets talk the Business of Knifemaking.
- Thread starter Austin Thrasher
- Start date
Drew Riley
Well-Known Member
Now that's funny.... and sad.... and probably true.
Motor City Mike
Well-Known Member
This thread has really got me thinking.
I need to get a better handle on my expenses, especially my labor.
The amount of time I put into a knife has always been an estimate for me and I'd like to get a more precise number on that.
So I downloaded a time clock app onto my phone. Now when I go into my shop I'll clock in and clock out when I'm done.
I need to get a better handle on my expenses, especially my labor.
The amount of time I put into a knife has always been an estimate for me and I'd like to get a more precise number on that.
So I downloaded a time clock app onto my phone. Now when I go into my shop I'll clock in and clock out when I'm done.
J. Doyle
Dealer - Purveyor
Making knives part time or full time to make money is a unique endeavor.
I think, for the most part, that at a certain level, its impossible to try to pay yourself a standard hourly wage and grow as a maker.
If you make more complex knives of high quality AND try to pay yourself a standard $20, $30, $40 whatever hourly wage, you will QUICKLY price yourself way out of the market. You will never sell a knife that is priced grossly over what the market will bear.
You can charge more money by improving your fit and finish and/or supplementing your work with better materials/processes or embellishments. The trade off there is it takes more time to do that.
If you don't wish to make that compromise, and insist on paying yourself a strict hourly rate, you will be forced to make knives at the quickest speed possible which translates to no extras and keeping costs down on materials. The consequence of this track is that you will likely be forever stuck as a lower-tier, bottom of the barrel knifemaker that either is forced to crank out sub-par knives or be a mid tech knife assembler who has almost everything done out of house and assembles and hand finishes lower end 'mid-tech's and be a slave to the clock just to keep your head above water.
The only way to get the 'best' of both worlds is to devalue your time....at least to some degree.
I think, for the most part, that at a certain level, its impossible to try to pay yourself a standard hourly wage and grow as a maker.
If you make more complex knives of high quality AND try to pay yourself a standard $20, $30, $40 whatever hourly wage, you will QUICKLY price yourself way out of the market. You will never sell a knife that is priced grossly over what the market will bear.
You can charge more money by improving your fit and finish and/or supplementing your work with better materials/processes or embellishments. The trade off there is it takes more time to do that.
If you don't wish to make that compromise, and insist on paying yourself a strict hourly rate, you will be forced to make knives at the quickest speed possible which translates to no extras and keeping costs down on materials. The consequence of this track is that you will likely be forever stuck as a lower-tier, bottom of the barrel knifemaker that either is forced to crank out sub-par knives or be a mid tech knife assembler who has almost everything done out of house and assembles and hand finishes lower end 'mid-tech's and be a slave to the clock just to keep your head above water.
The only way to get the 'best' of both worlds is to devalue your time....at least to some degree.
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
This is exactly why I turn down one-off custom work unless it’s just something I really want to do. I explain to people that it takes an enormous amount of time to create a new design and produce a quality knife. If it is a design that I will make 50 of over time then I can recoup some of that cost in time, spread out over that many knives. But if they had to pay for my time to do a true one-off that knife would cost thousands of dollars. I don’t pay myself per hour, but I know how long my knives take to make and what that “shop time” is worth to me on average.
Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
Yep...you've nailed that...lol!
Smallshop
KNIFE MAKER
here's what has become apparent the last couple years....you can work a job you hate trying to free up time and resources for a hobby you love....or...you can make your shop as efficient as possible and do the hobby full time...BUT...you will have to put in the job hours and hobby hours combined just to make a bit less that the job you hated. But...you're doing what you love...better to make a bit less doing what you LOVE...(within reason...lol)
I've spent many hours experimenting with efficiency on Stock removal knife making...it has become an obsession...lol. Because it is a skill that is hard to streamline if you want to make a beautiful knife. at some point I want to make a living making beautiful knives full time. I have been going at it with a two-fold approach...every change I make to process should make a BETTER knife...and should be a little quicker than the process before. I've gone down a lot of blind alleys....prolly more to come.
As a machine shop owner i have had jobs that were cash cows that I HATED....i would have to whip myself to get down to the shop and be bone weary at days end...Oh yeah...the money was great and I was miserable.
It would be better to make big life changes to do what you love. miserable is terrible. It is also miserable to misjudge your ability to make a living at what you love. My dad used to tell me (when I'd float business ideas by him) "No one can be creative if their basic needs are not met...figure out the bread and butter before you jump full time into the fun..." (don't jump till you have a plan that is sound)
basically...if two guys are exactly the same in talent, style, and quality but one can make the exact same knife TWICE as fast as the other guy...he will make twice the money...doing what he loves.
Efficiency....efficiency in all areas...design, fabrication, finish....don't mistake "short-cuts" for efficiency...efficiency is purity at all levels...efficiency is quality....quality in how you work, how you think, what you do with those "free" minutes every week....It is the holy grail for a craftsman. Some guys get there naturally...not me...but I'm chasin' it....
I've spent many hours experimenting with efficiency on Stock removal knife making...it has become an obsession...lol. Because it is a skill that is hard to streamline if you want to make a beautiful knife. at some point I want to make a living making beautiful knives full time. I have been going at it with a two-fold approach...every change I make to process should make a BETTER knife...and should be a little quicker than the process before. I've gone down a lot of blind alleys....prolly more to come.
As a machine shop owner i have had jobs that were cash cows that I HATED....i would have to whip myself to get down to the shop and be bone weary at days end...Oh yeah...the money was great and I was miserable.
It would be better to make big life changes to do what you love. miserable is terrible. It is also miserable to misjudge your ability to make a living at what you love. My dad used to tell me (when I'd float business ideas by him) "No one can be creative if their basic needs are not met...figure out the bread and butter before you jump full time into the fun..." (don't jump till you have a plan that is sound)
basically...if two guys are exactly the same in talent, style, and quality but one can make the exact same knife TWICE as fast as the other guy...he will make twice the money...doing what he loves.
Efficiency....efficiency in all areas...design, fabrication, finish....don't mistake "short-cuts" for efficiency...efficiency is purity at all levels...efficiency is quality....quality in how you work, how you think, what you do with those "free" minutes every week....It is the holy grail for a craftsman. Some guys get there naturally...not me...but I'm chasin' it....
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scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
well said.
Justin Presson
Well-Known Member
If I clocked in and out I would be depressed on how long it takes me to make a knife. People ask me all the time how much do you sell your knives for and then they ask how long it takes me to make each one and I always say "I dont know as long as it takes" I'm not sure who I stole that from but I think it was Ed maybe.
scott.livesey
Dealer - Purveyor
you don't have to clock in and out, but at least identify what task takes the longest, then see if there is a way to do it more efficiently.
when working with thin stock, the coarsest grit I use is 60, sometimes 80. pre-heat treat I have be going over everything with 180 or 220, a lot easier to sand soft steel than hard.
when working with thin stock, the coarsest grit I use is 60, sometimes 80. pre-heat treat I have be going over everything with 180 or 220, a lot easier to sand soft steel than hard.
Austin Thrasher
Well-Known Member
Very, very well said sir. There is some incredibly sound wisdom in that post! Thank you much
C Craft
Well-Known Member
Back when I contracted, if someone asked can you do that! I used a two prong approach!!
That usually was some bizarre idea they had in their head. I would usually try to let them know that your idea is going to cost money but, yes if it can be done, I can do.
The I would throw in a laugh and tell them if you have enough money,...……… I have enough time!
While we were both having a good laugh
........... the laugh stops abruptly and I would tell them, "seriously I can do it but it ain't going to be cheap"!! I use to love working for those who wanted what they asked for and, had the depth of their pockets to buy it!!! So far in the knife business I have not had to use that strategy but once. I had to do the second prong of the approach. The guy wanted a Zombie Killer, and that term just sends chills up and down my spine. So then I resorted the other stand by. You know its gonna be at least a year out and maybe more. You know what I know a guy who does wonders with this sort of thing and I think he is about to break loose from his last project. Then you send him to the competition!
John, is dead on. I always worked a 40 hr a week job, and then turned another 20-24 hrs. on the weekend for myself, as a carpenter. Sometimes I would be building cabinets out of my shop at home. I set out one time to nail it entirely by the hour I had in a set of cabinets. I logged in and out every time I was out there working!! At the end of the job by hours I was loosing money if it was totally factored on hours. However for the quote I made. I was making money every time. Totally figuring on the hours in has to do with stop and start! Sometimes when I worked in the shop I found out an hour was not necessarily an hour of work. For one reason or another!
Knife making for me is the same way. So I have to look at is as follows. What do I have in materials on that knife. How many machines or how much of the consumables, is this sale going to replace! Then when I factor in the hours, I have to shake my head! So far it has been a more of a labor of love. Not extremely profitable but it helps with the bills and it is a labor of love as well!
However I am a part-timer. I don't even want to think about trying to do it full time! That would take the fun out of it and I would have to make enough to pay some one else to do all the other things I do. I missed a lot with my kids because I was working all the time!!! Now days I have time to enjoy some of the things I missed as a father because, I was too busy obsessing with hours!!
Since I have been a part of knife making I have seen many say, "well I am going full time as a knifemaker"! In less than 3 years they disappear, very few actually make it as a full time knife maker!! That is what factoring in the hours does for you. You may command the big prices for your knives but it is no longer a labor of love it is work!!! Any way the is my O2 on this subject!!
John Wilson
Well-Known Member
I tip my hat to full time makers. I know I couldn’t do it.
Cliff, you make an excellent point. The fastest way to ruin a good hobby is to make it your job.
Cliff, you make an excellent point. The fastest way to ruin a good hobby is to make it your job.