Looking for Tips, Advice, and Direction on Temp Control

curtisk

Well-Known Member
Looking for Tips, Advice, and Direction on Temp Control

I recently purchased a used Johnson 102 blown gas forge. This thing is a jewel other than the time needed to get it up to working temp. I would like to install a temperature control unit but I do not want to buy the one from Johnson which is in excess of $1000.00. Any direction would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Curtis K.
 
When you say "temp control unit" are you meaning something that will actually control the temps? In other words do what something you can set at a given temp to keep the forge within that range? OR, are you looking for some way to simply readout the temps inside the forge?

If your wanting the first, I can't be much help, and I also think that putting something like that on a forge is a waste of money. If a forge is constructed properly, adjustability should be easily achieved by adjusting the fuel and air when needed. You will never achieve the type of temp control in a forge, that you can with something like a heat treat oven...it just doesn't work that way. Controlling how hot something your working on gets, is a matter of paying attention to what you're doing. It's about the amount of time you leave the piece in the forge.
I cringe ever time I read or hear of folks building forges with electric gas valves, PIDs, etc. in an attempt to have "temp control". While it works for a while, there is always something that goes wrong, and the individual(s) spend tons of time and effort trying to figure it out. I also think that stuff like that on a forge is very dangerous. A forge is nothing more than a controlled explosion, and in a system with lots of components, one thing fails and you can be in seriously dangerous situation.

If it's just a temp readout your looking for, I think that is a good idea. A simple PID controller (most folks get them off Ebay...just search for "PID Temperature Controller"), and look for a type K thermocouple. With those parts you can build a Pyrometer for monitoring temps at about 1/3 the cost of buying a digital pyrometer/thermocouple package. I favor this setup for temp monitoring because it is independent of the combustion system in a forge.....so if it fails, it has no impact on the forges operation.
 
@Ed - I've wondered about this. I cobbled together a propane forge from a chunk of well casing, a T-Rex burner, Kaowool, kiln shelving and 2.8k fire brick. I've been using pottery firing cones to calibrate my "by eye" judging of forge temp. And if I'm looking for critical temp I use a magnet. Am I missing the boat in not having a type K thermocouple?
 
I don't know if I would call it "missing the boat". I think it's a matter of time and experience. By that I mean...I worked for about 15 years without any means of actually knowing the temps inside my forges..doing it all "by eye". As I became hungry for answers as to why certain things were, or were not happening for me in relationship to forging temps, I chose to put a pyrometers on my forges. The first one I purchase was a complete unit with a digital readout and thermocouple that I purchased from a pottery supply outfit......and it was SPENDY. With help from folks who knew more about electronics than I do, I learned that one of the PID controllers and a type K thermocouple makes a very economical and effective pyrometer.

After installing pyrometers in all my forges, and learning to pay attention to them as I worked, I was quickly able to relate that certain things occur with the steels at specific temps and durations....which only made things easier for me, and gave me new insights.

The magnet is a good tool, but in reality, most steels will go non-magnetic aprrox. 150F or so BELOW critical temp. Where that really becomes important is that you have to realize that in order for steels to fully harden, they must be at critical temp when they hit the quench....not when the steel is 3-4 ft. away from the quench tank. If that situation occurs, then by the time you're at the quench with the steel, you've lost a couple hundred degrees. All kinds of outside factors come into play.....what's the ambient temp in your shop at the time? Are there any drafts or breezes? How far away from the heat source is the quench tank? All too often I get calls or emails from individuals who don't understand or realize why they are not getting full hardening on their blades...I've learned to have them walk me through their process in a very detailed manner. You'd be surprised at how often their problems boil down to the steel not being at critical temp when they hit the quench. Everything from trying to harden outdoors with the wind blowing, to having to walk a dozen steps to the quench tank (and by then they are WAY below the heat required.)

Back to the issue of a pyrometer....Do I think it's a necessity? No. But I do think that once an individual's knowledge level reaches a certain point, there's no better way to acquire answers you seek, than using one.
Without the pyrometer I might not have ever been able to successfully weld 416/San Mai billets. I failed several times because I did not know the correct temp to soak the billet(s). With the pyrometer, it took me far less attempts before I discovered the correct temp, and now I know exactly what the temps have to be to get it right. So, although it was a long time coming for me, having a pyrometer on my forge has certainly helped me be "better" at what I do.
 
I bought both of my pyrometers off of ebay for cheap. Some of the Digital multimeters will accept a Type K thermocouple and can be had pretty cheap too.

Mike
 
Ed can you tell me what else I need besides the PID? Anyone know of a WIP or tutorial on how to assemble and install this?
Thanks
 
Believe it or not theres a place called Dick Blick supplies (Artist) I got a Skutt 2500*guage and thermo coupler for about a hundred bucks. So Far So Good!
 
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Hi Cal!

Just came back to this thread and saw your question. All you need is: Single line readout PID (one like this:http://cgi.ebay.com/Universal-Digital-PID-Temperature-Control-Controller-/350277583494?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item518e2bc286), an old 110V power cord (for power), and a type K thermocouple like this: http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=JTIN&Nav=tema07
The PID will either come with a manual, or they will have an online version. Generally you wire the 110V power cord to termianls 1 & 2, and the thermocouple to terminals 9 & 10. Put the thermocouple through a hole in the forge body (only have about 1-2" of the thermocouple exposed on the inside of the forge) and then plug it in....it will readout (up to 2499F) the temp the thermocouple is exposed to.

You figure about $40 for the PID, and $20 for the thermocouple....there you have yourself a digital pyrometer for about $60.
 
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