Need help with basic details for my first knife~ A little lost

L

Lazypanda

New Member
To start this out, I have a very basic idea of what to do... That being said, specifics to the metal (O1), a poor idea.
From what I have read, everyone differs a bit, I want someone knowledgeable to assess if my plan will produce an useable knife.

For my first knife I plan on making is a karambit. Since I'm a newb at this I plan on ~roughly~ following this guide: http://www.stormthecastle.com/blacksmithing/make-a-karambit.htm
I'm using the O1 steel he recommended ~http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050R128W?redirect=true&ref_=ya_st_dp_summary

So after I roughly grind out my knife I will have to harden it at around 1500 degrees Fahrenheit, to the point where a magnet will not stick to it for how long? 2minutes, 10minutes, 15 or 20?

After that I quickly quench in, vegetable oil (heated to around 140 degrees Fahrenheit)? I know vegetable oil is not the proper liquid, but I have heard it should work fine for what I need, it is also very cheap.

Then I temper at around 425 degrees Fahrenheit for two hours twice, setting the knife out to cool to room temp afterwards~ I plan on putting the knife in a pan of sand to normalize heat since I plan on using an kitchen oven.

Then sharpen the bad boy up and attach my grip.

Sounds good right?
~ I will also add pictures when I get started with the steel~ Delivery is slow and I do not have a great selection of tools- so it will take a long time especially since it is my first.
 
First off Welcome to Knifedogs. Like a lot of experienced knifemakers told me...keep it simple for the first knife. I have never made a karambit but I could see how it could be challenging. Do you have a grinder? What equipment and tools do you have? I'm no heat treat expert so I will let someone with more experience comment on that but if you plan to do your own heat treat without controlled oven the go to steel is 1084. I don't know about 01 but for 1084 on the cheap canoloa oil is recommended.
Do not sharpen it until you get the handle on and the sheath done.
Also if you want to you can send it off to be heatreated Knifemaker Darrin Sanders does heat treating for others, he has done a bunch for me.
Good luck and we like pictures☺
 
Storm the Castle is a source that simplifies things quite a bite. The project you chose on there is one that comes after several other more basic projects.

I would suggest if you are not committed to O1 use either 5160, 1084, or 1075 for your steel. They are a lot less critical to heat treat. O1 needs a minimal soak time during the non magnetic stage.

You can use canola oil but, O1 seems to like Parks 50 better as a quenchant. Do not listen to any suggestions to water quench it that you may find reading on the web.



Now welcome to the journey! After you finish that one look to make a drop point hunter. A great knife to start your knife making journey with.
 
I'll piggyback on what George said...... O1 MIGHT cause you some issues when heat treating with Veg oil. The steels that George mentioined are far more forgiving and should be considered. If this is your very first knife build, I suspect the shape of a Karambit is going to cause you grief in that the profile (shape) of that design makes grinding difficult. Many seasoned knifemakers have difficulty with grinding blades that have deep recurve edges... and the Karambit has a very excessive recurve. The most common thing that happens with that type of design (having such a tight recurve over such a short blade) when grinding, is that the tip gets literally ground off. It can be very frustrating for a first project.

When it comes to making a knife for the first time, I always advocate giving yourself the best chances for success, and the means starting with a basic/simple design, with minimal curves or other design details that will cause problems. I stronly suspect ath once you build your first knife, you'll be all excited to get to the next one.....and with that in mind, I would suggest starting with a simple drop point design, or anything with a relatively straight edge less then 4". It will teach you much, without handicapping yourself with a complex design, and give you a much better chance of success.
 
I'll bite too. I second or third what these gentlemen above have said, making a karambit knife on your first go if it might be more of a challenge than you think. If this is your first, I would say try something more traditional, like a drop point hunter or such. But other than design considerations, the heat treat of a knife is paramount, as I am sure you understand. And it is how you plan to heat treat that will determine your steel choice. O1 is a great steel, and is fairly forgiving. Not as easy to get the most potential out of it over, say, 1084, but if you have good temperature control of your heat source, O1 is indeed a great steel choice. If you are using a simple forge type set up for heat treating....O1 may not be the best choice, because it requires a tight temperature window and a soak at that temp. Hard to do in a forge type set up. Much better going with 1084, because it's temp window is more forgiving and requires no soak, really.

If you have an oven that has temp control, heat treat O1 in the following manner: (O1 usually comes in a fine spheroidized state and is ready to machine and ready to harden...no need for normalizing or cycling) bring the piece up to 1475ºF and hold for 15-20 minutes, quench in 130ºF medium speed oil. Temper at 400ºF twice one hour (at least twice one hour and temp may need to be adjusted up or down depending on application).

If you don't have a heat treat oven and are using a forge type set up to heat treat, go with 1084 steel. Use a magnet to judge how hot your steel is. But just remember one thing....non magnetic is NOT hot enough. Non magnetic, the point in which the magnet will no longer stick to the steel, is generally around 1414ºF, about 85ºF too cold!!!! So once the magnet stops sticking, note the shade of red, and go "one or two shades hotter". You need to be about 1500ºF, so just keep that in mind, as it will take another minute or so once the magnet no longer sticks. No need to soak with 1084, once it is up to temp and equalized, quench in 130º oil.

O1 does not need a fast oil. Canola oil warmed to 130ºF is not a bad choice with O1, but is a bit fast for that steel. AAA I think is the "go to" oil for O1, but if I didn't have it, I would use the canola.
1084 needs a somewhat fast quench, and as it turns out 130ºF canola works pretty well, if you don't have access to fast oils like Parks 50.
 
There's not a lot I can add to what has already been stated, but here's what I think. First off, whoever told you that O-1 is a poor idea for a knife steel is very mistaken. O-1 is a fine high carbon steel knife and I make almost all of my single steel knives from it. It is a bit finicky, but you can still heat treat it with "archaic" methods (i.e. without a fancy oven) if you are careful and very attentive. I will assume that you have a forge to get it up to critical heat before you quench and harden. That being said go to a metal scrap yard and find a piece of 3"x3" or 4"x4" heavy wall steel tubing. Preferably 3/16 inch thick wall or better and just long enough to fit in your forge from front to back. Put the tube in the forge and put the knife in the tube edge up. This will keep the direct flame off of the steel and allow you to watch the knife go to red hot much easier. It also creates a semi-controlled "inner oven" and heats the knife up more uniformly than just putting it in the forge. Follow the advice above about using canola oil, getting it hot enough, and most importantly, put the handle on BEFORE you sharpen the blade! I also would strongly suggest a simpler design choice for your first knife. The learning curve here is very steep, and the simpler you try for your fist knife the greater chances for success you will have. The home oven is fine for tempering (better if it's an electric oven and not gas) I used that same method for most of the knives I made for about 2 years. They were all O-1 and were very popular with hunters and outdoors men. I've attached a photo of the first knife I ever made and I still carry it. It's a simple yet timeless design. If you make a knife like that, you will be very happy to carry it for as long as I have carried mine, or longer. Post some photos of your process step by step and we will be happy to try and guide you through this. Enjoy the journey!

1st hunter.jpg
 
As Cliffrat said, O1 is a bit finicky to heat treat. I will stick my neck out and say that most who use it recommend and oven to get the best out of it. Some of that has to do with it's higher carbon content. Steels like 1080 and 1084 have a lower carbon content and are not as finicky to heat treat which has it's own learning curve to start out with. Get some of the steels that were recommended above for your first blades and save the O1 for later. I think that you will make your life easier for yourself.

Doug
 
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