Old Bowie guard & frame technique question

D

deloid

Member
Hello,

I forge then finish with my travis grinder. I used to make primitive knives then saw the beauty of 19th century Bowies and i would like to try my hand at making knives in a similar style to the ones pictured below.

I have a good reference library but I don't have any that discuss these multiple part guards....sometimes associated with an edge frame that gives the appearance of a full tang knife.

Are there any books that discuss this approach? Any modern tutorials?
If not, would someone help me understand what is done to create these type of knives (as pictured). At minimum someone must own a broken knife that exposes the "guts".

Thanks for any responses-

bowie guards001 copy.jpgbowie guards002 copy.jpgbowie guards003 copy.jpgbowie guards004 copy.jpg
Dean Lapinel
 
I think I found the video on the ABS site. I watched and enjoyed Master Smith Steve Culver discussing frame handles. Are pictures 1 &2 showing full frames with the frame incorporating part of the outer guard? If so then the trapezoid must be silver soldered or pin peened...correct?
I think I understand pic #3 but I have no clue what is going on with pic #4.
Dean
 
Go on YouTube and look up Kyle Royer, he does a frame handle build that is incredible!!! There are several parts to the one tutorial so you have to look for them, guaranteed worth the effort! Rex
 
Check out all of Jim Batson's books. That is his specialty. You just missed the Jim Batson Bladesmithing Symposium at Tannehill Park in Alabama last weekend. I did not get to go this year but there are so many excellent Smiths that demo at Tannehill. Anyways Jim Batson is the Prez of the ABS now and you should be able to contact him through there. Super guy and awesome to watch.
 
Handles and Guards by Joe Keeslar

It's not super detailed, but it covers most every aspect of the most common handle constructions including lots of great jigs n tips. Well worth every penny. I bought a copy this weekend at the OKCA show and could hardly put it down.
 
I have a copy of Keeslar's book (wonderfully to the point). I was going to call Joe Keeslar if I could find his number again.
Patrick...thanks so much- I did find that I can buy for only $15 video of the demonstration...I don't remember noting if it was this years or another but its not really important. I am EXTREMELY interested in his books you mentioned. I am a book collector (as a reference not money) and I don't have any of his. Frankly a quick look on yahoo search and Amazon didn't guide me to any of his books so help would be appreciated (such as a title list or web page).
Thanks again-
Dean
 
deloid said:
I did find that I can buy for only $15 video of the demonstration...

Thanks again-
Dean
Click to expand...

Can someone tell me where to get these videos for $15, I went to Batsons and caught the end of Steve Dunn's Damascus demo, seriously awesome! He has the perfect demenor to be a great teacher! I'd love to get a video of the entire demo, Thanks, Rex
 
deloid said:
I'll watch the Kyle Royer vids- thanks-
Click to expand...

The only frustrating thing about Kyle's video's on youtube, is finding all of them, they are numbered and there seemed to always be one or 2 that I couldn't find, it's been a while since I watched any of his. Do know he made that video when he was 17 or 18 years old, you'd never know if you didn't, he just doesn't seem like any of the kids I know or have ever known for that matter. He is all about precision, while he is somehow still naunchalaunt about it. Like everyone deals with .0001 everyday! He will most likely be a Mastersmith this summer, if I remember correctly , the wait after JS to MS is 2 years? So he'll be a 20 year old Mastesmith...makes me sick!
Oh, I'm just jealous, to have known what I wanted to do in life at 20 years old. I'd have been happy with 30 years old...and he makes some of the prettiest blades!! Check him out, you'll be going back and watching him over and over again! Rex
 
Rex- Check out the selection of DVD's in the ABS store on the website-

http://www.americanbladesmith.com/i...ection=product_category&category_id=17&next=1

Kyle passed the Master Smith test at Bladeshow last year and I believe you are correct that he is a 20 year old MS. May be 21 now though.

Speaking of the ABS if y'all are forgers you should consider joining our ranks. It's a great organization to be a part of !

I believe this is the tutorial by J.R. Cook that BillT was talking about-
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/uploads/file/Techniques Master Class/Frame Handles - Cook.pdf

In addition to that there's alot of great info both on the ABS website and forum. Go to the general ABS website and click the link at the top of the page labelled "Techniques" to find some great info-
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/

Also feel free to check out the forum. You won't be able to post if your not a member but you can still read alot of good info there as well-
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/

To the OP's questions about frame handles- Like most things knifemaking there's alot of ways to skin this cat. Many of the Sheffield knives had cast handles or varous other methods of construction. Some had a guard with a frame behind the guard while others had what would be considered a mortised handle with a "frame wrap" for lack of a better term. Lots of variations were made.

When I attended the Introduction to Bladesmithing class in Arkansas I also visited the Historic Arkansas Museum in Little Rock. FANTASTIC place :) Of course I took some pics while there so I thought you might like to see a couple-

Arkansas032.jpg


Arkansas031.jpg


Arkansas030.jpg


Arkansas029.jpg


Arkansas065.jpg


There are 72 pics in this album but y'all please feel free to check them out if your interested-
http://s570.photobucket.com/albums/ss147/joshdabney/Arkansas Historic Museum/

Hope this helps y'all out, -Josh
 
Josh Dabney said:
Rex- Check out the selection of DVD's in the ABS store on the website-

Speaking of the ABS if y'all are forgers you should consider joining our ranks. It's a great organization to be a part of !

Some had a guard with a frame behind the guard while others had what would be considered a mortised handle with a "frame wrap" for lack of a better term. Lots of variations were made.


Hope this helps y'all out, -Josh
Click to expand...

Incredibly helpful post Josh...thank you! I do plan on joining the ABS but I worry about being too old to start shooting for the tests (56 and a beat up body from an active life style).
The more I learn, the less I know...it seems. You wrote " Some had a guard with a frame behind the guard while others had what would be considered a mortised handle with a "frame wrap" for lack of a better term. Lots of variations were made." I desperately want and need to understand that but I don't. maybe because I'm a visual learner.
Your first museum photo shows the tang that has probably corroded back since I can't imagine it was that short to start with. I guess all the contact points were silver soldered but even with this I wonder about the strength or durability of the handle and the weight (balance getting shifted back if the blade is not long).
I would guess that those guys from the 19th century used wrought for the frame? What is used by the modern maker these days?
thanks,
Dean
 
Josh,
Thanks for posting those links, I checked out JR's tutorial, it's not very detailed but it's not near as complicated of a build as Kyle Royer's, JR's way is much simpler with the "strap", but I'd say Kyle's looks bettter overall. Both are phenomenal blades! I'll check out some of the others when I get home tonight, THANKS! Rex
 
Dean,

The ABS is a WHOLE lot more than shooting for ratings !!! I consider the ratings to be the least imortant aspect of the organization.

In a nutshell the ABS is about education and promotion of the forged blade. In function the older or more experienced among our ranks go out of their way to assist us whippersnappers in pretty much EVERY aspect of knifemaking, not just how to forge a blade. Just like anything you kinda get out of it what you put in. If you get involved in the community and make some friends you'll learn alot and enjoy the comradarie of belonging to an organization filled with like minded folks.

From my experience you'ld be very hard pressed to find a group more willing to freely share their knowledge or a nicer group of folks to be a part of. The up-sides are you'll make some lifelong friends and in the process improve your personal knowledge and skill in the art of the forged blade. I think most of our members strive to reach a level where they can continue the tradition of educating others one day and this tradition of education is what's really great about the ABS. If you were to join and find for whatever reason it's not for you the only downside is your out $60 ... Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained ;)

I can't speack for others but I fell good each year when I pay my dues.

As for being too old I'll bet we could find a WHOLE BUNCH of smiths who would disagree. While forging certainly can be rough on the body learning proper form and technique goes a long way towards lowering the impact on the body so you may forging for many years to come. A power hammer helps too, LOL. Wish I had one ;)

Let me see if I can dig up some resources to help you understand different methods of construction better.

Take care- Josh
 
This tutorial by MS Lynn Rhea shows the construction of a mortised tang knife.
http://www.americanbladesmith.com/u...ea-Installing a Guard and Mortised Handle.pdf

Here's a link to MS Steve Culver giving a demo on Frame Handle Construction-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE3GavXWv3o&lr=1&uid=aWTCbMZUPHicSJNdZsH-dQ

Steve Culvers Jigs and Fixtures page, scroll down to "shop jigs and fixtures" section and look at the 3rd one down that shows the "mandrel for shaping a SanFrancisco style knife frame. This is the type of frame handle I was describing when I said a Mortised tang with a handle wrap-
http://www.culverart.com/Jigs and Fixtures.htm

In the heyday of the Bowie knife's popularity from the 1840's to 1860's (roughly) many of the frame handles made in Sheffield had frames cast of either brass or silver. The one in the pic I posted was a brass frame with the tang pinned to it.

These days the frame material is at the discression of the maker. Mild steel, blade steel, 416ss, damascus, and I even made one with a paper micarta frame :) Makers choice is the order fo the day these days.

Check that info out and we can talk frame handles some more and hopefully raise your understanding fo the subject

Take care - Josh
 
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