Quick easy Hamon

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Thank you Tom, I learned a lot from post. Other forum critiqued steel used, this one grind paper. I see end result and admire you still learning us, also like critiques and take all in for free lessons. I am going to go against some/all and try this on 1084, just because I have it, mini forge and cheap process for testing. I will, hope, my end result can be posted here.
I am conflicted, many experts that I admire have posted on both forums with differing opinions. OP literally shows a beautiful knife with his method.
 
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Mr. Lewis was kind enough to share his process with us. If it works for him, it works for him. I honestly don't know whether his techniques are the best in theory or not, but let's not butt ourselves into someplace we have no business being. (What I mean to say is, let's keep it respectful, which has been the case so far, but I could see this going downhill fast)!
This seems like scolding....well......me.

Odd that one would issue a warning when, by their own admission, no one has done anything wrong.

This is a public forum. Posts are open to everyone for comment AND critique, as long as forum rules are followed and some degree of human decency is involved. But that doesn't mean people have to agree on everything.

The OP made some bold claims and gave a "how to" . He should be prepared to stand behind that and waiting to see if he does. He is not exempt from questions and disagreement.

We recently had a thread where the OP basically admitted that some of the information was conflicting/questionable and said not to call him on it. And when people inevitably called him on it, he threw a tantrum, took his posts down and hasn't posted since. Good riddance I say.

I'm not into the whole 'nothing but back slapping and high fives' thing. I'm interested in discussion and learning and improving and making myself and those I interact with better knifemakers.

So with due respect to you as well....save your scolding for sometime when it's actually warranted.
 
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Now to @Bruce McLeish and @Smallshop ....

I also have many years (though not 40) chasing hamon. I'll be sure to let you fellas know when I finally produce a blade with hamon that I'm actually satisfied with.

I have some thoughts and ideas, and there are some real craftsmen that have dedicated an extensive amount of time to pursuing and perfecting the art form of hamon and posting thoughts and WIP's on the subject. Perhaps a separate thread on the topic could be started if you were so inclined or a PM to me would be fine.

As to the OP.....I said there were things in his posts that I think are misinformation, which he denounced in his post. And I stand by that. Could be a great discussion. But he hasn't returned comment yet. The ball is in his court to do so.
 
I'm not into the whole 'nothing but back slapping and high fives' thing. I'm interested in discussion and learning and improving and making myself and those I interact with better knifemakers.
Agreed. I commented on a post by an excellent maker on a knife that was gorgeous a few years back. It was perfect! except the makers mark was drastically tilted...and I commented on it...the elephant in the living room. No else said anything but I know they all noticed. I don't think he's posted since....and I love his work.

If someone says comments and critiques welcome....I used to mention whatever seems off. but after discovering the unwritten rules.... I just do not comment except for the stuff I love.

Showing knives to other makers is like going to grade school and then realizing that you showed up in only skivies....I get that....but if you ask for critique...ask yourself if you really want them....lol.
 
"But he hasn't returned comment yet. The ball is in his court to do so"
I really don't have any comment. I went to lengths to show how I got the hamon I got. I heat treated at 36 grit and my clay was thick. I showed pictures, the process, and the results. I will let the results speak for themselves.
I don't intend to get in any argument with anyone.
Of course someone could do a wip showing 36 grit caused blade cracking, or they could do a wip showing how thick clay harms the hamon.
The ball is really in their court.
 
"But he hasn't returned comment yet. The ball is in his court to do so"
I really don't have any comment. I went to lengths to show how I got the hamon I got. I heat treated at 36 grit and my clay was thick. I showed pictures, the process, and the results. I will let the results speak for themselves.
I don't intend to get in any argument with anyone.
Of course someone could do a wip showing 36 grit caused blade cracking, or they could do a wip showing how thick clay harms the hamon.
The ball is really in their court.
No one really needs to argue about it. And no one is. But a discussion could be had.

I take zero issue with the "this is what I do" part of your post. You do you.

It's the dogmatic statements about clay thickness affecting hamon formation and the 36 grit pre quench finish I take issue with.

You stated that you had "a lot" of experience with hamon on blades. It doesn't look like it to me, if I may be frank. It looks very basic and amateur. It actually looks like someone that hasn't had any study or experience on the topic at all.

Again, if you had just said that this is your way and there are better ways (which you did) and left it at that, I'd have nothing to say on it. But you didn't stop there. You went on to make bold claims and implied that other people were making too much of it and doing the clay wrong and wasting their time. THAT is why I'm attempting this discussion.

I would encourage you to look at work by Don Hanson, Jarrod Ball, Jan Hafinec, Mike Quesenberry, Nick Wheeler, Don Fogg, John White and Karl Andersen.

Every one of those guys understands hamon as well as anyone. And it shows in their blades.. And I can personally tell you every one of them will disagree with you on clay thickness AND placement. And if I compare the visible tangible results to yours......I know who I'm taking advice from.

As for the 36 grit rough grind for quenching...it absolutely CAN cause you problems. Maybe you've never got big visible cracks....but do you have micro cracks? Would you even know it if you did? Do you test your blades?

In addition to cracks, if your blades were highly polished and well finished (which they don't look like to me) I wouldn't be at all surprised to see "ghost scratches", remnant heat treat artifact, of those 36 grit scratches show up after post HT grind and clean up if the blade was well finished and etched/polished. Try it sometime....you may be surprised.

I'm not angry with you....just trying to discuss. And I'm not trying to be a jerk. As I said, you do you and that's fine. But you shouldn't imply that others' methods are incorrect or suspect or question someone else's experience level if it appears that yours is lacking as well.

I'm interested in discussion that everyone can learn and benefit from, myself included. And that can't happen if everyone just back pats and tells everyone else that everything everybody does is amazing.
 
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Perhaps you missed the "Quick and Easy" part. I am well aware of Don Hanson III, Nick Wheeler, etc.
First the quench at 36 grit part. Ever since I have access to 36 grit belts I have heat treated and quenched at that grit.
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This was my ABS blade of 5160 that I used to pass the ABS Journeymans qualification back in 2001. 36 grit when quenched.
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One of my five knives to get the Journey mans stamp back in 2001. 1084 with 36 grit when quenched.
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Turkish Damascus blade. 36 grit when quenched.
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1084 blade with 36 girt when quenched.
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Cannister Damascus chain, 36 grit when quenched.
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Cannister Damascus, chain, 36 grit when quenched.
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Cannister Damascus quenched with 36 grit.
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Pattern Welded Damascus again at 36 grit.
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36 grit when quenched.
All the knives I have ever heat treated and it's been hundreds have had 36 grit. I feel justified in saying that at least for me, 36 grit doesn't cause any problem during heat treating.
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These blades are AEB-L. I don't heat treat that myself, I send it off to Paul Bos heat treating. These blades were beveled with 36 grit and it caused no problems in the heat treating.
 
Now for the Hamon part. I have found that if the clay is the same on both sides of the blade that the thickness of the clay doesn't matter. The hamon or temper line will follow the clay. As I think I already stated for what I sell my blades for I am not going to spend the time to get a Don Hanson III Hamon. I looked for a "Quick and Easy" way. I think I found it. I am sorry you don't like my knives but my customers do and that's what counts.
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Thick clay
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Thick clay
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This is all I will have to say on this issue. If someone wants to ask a question as to how I did something I will try to reply.
I feel I have with pictures supported what I have said about 36 grit and clay.
When I posted the WIP I had no idea it would turn this way.
 
@Tom Lewis

You "had no idea it would turn out" what way? People daring to post anything but backslaps and high fives? People asking you questions?

I didn't miss any part of your post....in fact I addressed that part and went further and told you exactly what my issue was.....which you didn't address. When someone else in this thread asked you about something, you questioned their experience level. When I question your experience level, based on your own post and words, you seem to get defensive........odd.

As for the 36 grit topic- you showed a bunch of pics of knives that you quenched at 36 grit.....good for you. Still didn't answer my question about if you test them or not or how do you know you don't have micro cracks.

And the hamon topic- you showed several pics of knives with some "meh" hamon and made sure you let me know you used thick clay. Imagine what they might have turned out like with thin clay. That part of the process has no bearing on "quick and easy" so it wouldn't hurt to try it huh?

But no matter. It seems you're pretty set in your ways and have all the knowledge and answers you need so carry on.
 
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Question for the group. As someone who is very new to hamons, I don't understand the discussion on thick v/s thin. Thinking out loud here, if the goal of the clay is to slow the cooling process to create the hamon, why wouldn't thicker be better? Wouldn't it add more time to cool? This month's issue of Blade magazine has an article on hamons. They too mention in one part about the clay being thin. Just trying to clear up some confusion in my feeble mind!
 
Question for the group. As someone who is very new to hamons, I don't understand the discussion on thick v/s thin. Thinking out loud here, if the goal of the clay is to slow the cooling process to create the hamon, why wouldn't thicker be better? Wouldn't it add more time to cool? This month's issue of Blade magazine has an article on hamons. They too mention in one part about the clay being thin. Just trying to clear up some confusion in my feeble mind!
My understanding so far is it can impact the "activity" of the hamon. The wispy lines, sometimes whiteish at the edges vs. a more distinct delineated line. Of course, clay thickness isn't the only thing that can have an impact. That's what makes them so challenging.
 
Brad, to try to answer your question, over and over I have heard that thick clay is not good for a hamon. I have been told that the temper line will not follow thick clay. My experimenting has shown that if the clay is the same on both sides of the blade the hamon or temper line will follow the clay. I think I have shown that in the pictures I have produced.
The WIP I showed does not try to produce the wisps, etc. that the best hamon's produce. It was a way to get a quick and easy hamon. I think I have showed that.
Blade magazine did have an article on Hamons. They showed pictures. I think the hamon pictures I have shown compare very favorably to those shown in the magazine article.
My critic has shown no pictures, shown no evidence of anything, no WIP's, only words, and he switched the conversation from hamons and 36 grit to unfair criticisms of my knives without ever having seen them in person.
I had hoped to be helpful with this WIP. I did not expect to be unfairly criticized.
My critic implied that I don't test my knives. Well, I do, and Just how do you think the knife was tested that passed the Journeyman Smith tests.
 
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Brad, to try to answer your question, over and over I have heard that thick clay is not good for a hamon. I have been told that the temper line will not follow thick clay. My experimenting has shown that if the clay is the same on both sides of the blade the hamon or temper line will follow the clay. I think I have shown that in the pictures I have produced.
The WIP I showed does not try to produce the wisps, etc. that the best hamon's produce. It was a way to get a quick and easy hamon. I think I have showed that.
Blade magazine did have an article on Hamons. They showed pictures. I think the hamon pictures I have shown compare very favorably to those shown in the magazine article.
My critic has shown no pictures, shown no evidence of anything, no WIP's, only words, and he switched the conversation from hamons and 36 grit to unfair criticisms of my knives without ever having seen them in person.
I had hoped to be helpful with this WIP. I did not expect to be unfairly criticized.
My critic implied that I don't test my knives. Well, I do, and Just how do you think the knife was tested that passed the Journeyman Smith tests.
I appreciate you taking the time to show your process in detail. My best hamon was purely accidental. Then ones I have tried to do have failed miserably. Definitely a learning curve.
 
Wow...a lot to go through here.

My experimenting has shown that if the clay is the same on both sides of the blade the hamon or temper line will follow the clay. I think I have shown that in the pictures I have produced.
^^^Something we agree on. Putting excessively thick clay on is barely any different than edge quench.

The WIP I showed does not try to produce the wisps, etc. that the best hamon's produce.
Why not? Trying for more active hamon doesn't take any longer than what you do. The etching process can be as quick or involved as the maker chooses.

It was a way to get a quick and easy hamon. I think I have showed that.
You have indeed.

Blade magazine did have an article on Hamons. They showed pictures. I think the hamon pictures I have shown compare very favorably to those shown in the magazine article.
I haven't seen the article.

My critic has shown no pictures, shown no evidence of anything, no WIP's, only words,
Really? My work is shown on here regularly....with clear detailed pictures. But I'll be sure to post some for you.

and he switched the conversation from hamons and 36 grit to unfair criticisms of my knives
Unfair how? I judged as best I can on the pictures as it's all we have. Was it "unfair" because you didn't like the conclusions I drew?

without ever having seen them in person.
I had hoped to be helpful with this WIP. I did not expect to be unfairly criticized.
Please show where I unfairly criticized you.

My critic implied that I don't test my knives.
I asked you if you did or not. That's not an implication.

Well, I do
Good to know. Thanks for answering.

, and Just how do you think the knife was tested that passed the Journeyman Smith tests.
On a 2x4, twice and a single piece of rope?

You know you can pass that particular test with a piece of unhardened mild steel, right?
 
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