Forge that's never been lit - by a stock removal maker.

Knifemaker.ca

Dealer - Purveyor
Well, I'm biting the bullet today. I'm trying to straighten a bent lawn tractor blade and I can't get it hot enough with a propane torch. Looked in the corner at the forge I've never lit - and don't know if it will.

The propane feed didn't end in "jets" yet - just a couple of holes and the "jets" were in a pill bottle. There were two sets. One set with a tiny little hole and another set with a REALLY tiny little hole. (Sorry if I`m getting too technical here.) I chose the set with the tiny hole. The forge was sitting on the floor - and it weighs darn near 400 pounds - so I lifted it onto a steel table (using a fence puller hoist) that used to be for a t-shirt press. A new set of heavy duty casters because the little ones on the table are threatening to cave over.

I do get the `prayers` thing - and I got it covered. Anything else I need to know?

Rob!
 
Look real good at your arm hair to remember what it looks like. Fire her up and see what happens. Welcome to the dark side where steel rusts and people use hammers to make knives.
 
Well, the forge burns and the shop didn't. Not getting hot enough. Is a 20 pound tank enough pressure? It's a home made forge - looks nicely done but I have no idea what it takes. It had never been fired. Guess I should get some pictures posted. I'm sure its something simple. Is there a tutorial anywhere?
 
I run both mine with a 20lb tank. How long did you run it? Mine take 10-15 min to come up to forging temperature. Pictures would help
 
It may be cartable refractory as you say its very heavy. That stuff takes about 20-30 minutes to heat up. Is the flame bluish or orange coming from the burner?
 
Yes, it is sizeable - 24" x 12 1/2" OD by 6 1/2" ID

IMG_20131014_104038 (800x600).jpg


I don't know if the regulator or the pressure gauge work. Gauge shows zero at all times. I have tried setting the reg from all the way in to all the way out. Mostly, the middle works not too bad.


IMG_20131014_104123 (600x800).jpg


Lousy pic above. what I'm trying to show is the tiny jet plugged into the plumbing pipe and aimed into the venture opening

IMG_20131014_104159 (800x600).jpg


Looks not too bad inside.

IMG_20131014_104216 (800x600).jpg


Backdoor open seems to improve burn - but still not enough to heat things up even after an hour.

Flame is inconsistent. Sometimes just an ineffective crackle of blue inside the venture pipe. Sometimes a 1 1/2 - 2" blue flame coming from the inside end of the pipe. Sometimes, all the blast seems to occur against the wall.

Want burning pictures?
 
It came with two sizes of 'jets'. I'm now guessing this may have been intended for LPG vs Nat gas. I chose the larger ones (flip of a coin) and I'm thinking I chose wrong fro my reading. Could this be leading to the problems I'm having?
 
Looks like the lining is castable refractory which will take more time to heat up but an hour is way too long. It almost sounds like your not getting enough air or the fuel is inconsistent. Can you set the pressure to a specific PSI? I run both mine 5-10lbs, if I turn them up too high the flame can't get enough air to run consistently.
 
Thanks Brad

Like I said, the pressure gauge says 0 all the time. I can get it to about 3 or 4 psi by taking it off and blowing on it, so it isn't seized at least.I tried the smaller hole jets and they were even worse. Keeping in mind that this a home build, I'm guessing I have some experimenting to do with hole size The nipples came with a #63 drill bit that fits the larger holes pretty much exactly. I've seen suggestions as large as #57.

By the way, is the gas regulator handle the same as a water tap.... screw in for less?
 
Mine the tighter you turn the handle the more pressure, like an oxygen acetylene torches. With most homemade forges they need a little frigging to get them working right.

This video is similar to what my burners look and sound like.

[video=youtube;dgoea_5-0EA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgoea_5-0EA[/video]
 
Your forge looks to be overall the size of my Chile Forge Habanero but with a smaller interior. The also do not use a castable refractory but with a forge that size they recommend using a 30lb tank of Propane or two 20lb tanks linked together. My forge gets hot fast I can be forging in 10 minutes with it running at 6 psi.
 
Yes, it is sizeable - 24" x 12 1/2" OD by 6 1/2" ID

IMG_20131014_104038 (800x600).jpg


I don't know if the regulator or the pressure gauge work. Gauge shows zero at all times. I have tried setting the reg from all the way in to all the way out. Mostly, the middle works not too bad.


IMG_20131014_104123 (600x800).jpg


Lousy pic above. what I'm trying to show is the tiny jet plugged into the plumbing pipe and aimed into the venture opening

IMG_20131014_104159 (800x600).jpg


Looks not too bad inside.

IMG_20131014_104216 (800x600).jpg


Backdoor open seems to improve burn - but still not enough to heat things up even after an hour.

Flame is inconsistent. Sometimes just an ineffective crackle of blue inside the venture pipe. Sometimes a 1 1/2 - 2" blue flame coming from the inside end of the pipe. Sometimes, all the blast seems to occur against the wall.

Want burning pictures?

OK I am trying to cover this by looking at the tread in one window and reading in another, and pulling photos from a third, so bear with me, if I don't screw this up it may be a miracle.

Your forge has a couple of problems as I see it. One the pressure gauge. This was my forge before I converted to a PID and controllable gas solenoid valves.

Forge001-1.jpg


With the gauge in this location I could read the pressure being put out by the adjustment of the regulator. I am not sure you will get a good reading where your gauge is located after the burner!

It is large but not too the point where is shouldn't heat in fairly short order. You stated that it came with two sits of jets. Someone already mentioned one may be for natural gas and the other for propane. You may want to try the other set of jets. If you are using the wrong jets it will make a difference.

The other problem I see is your forge may have hot spots. When the burners come in at 90* angle it tends to make hot spots in the forge. Some say the burners should angle up or down to create a vortex within the chamber and that avoids hot spots by creating that swirl or votex! Ed Caffery saw a picture I had posted when I first was building my forge and he suggested the upward angled burners. I made the change before doing the refractory inside and have never looked back!

forge002.jpg



One statement you made kind of is a clue as well!
QUOTE:

Backdoor open seems to improve burn - but still not enough to heat things up even after an hour.

Flame is inconsistent. Sometimes just an ineffective crackle of blue inside the venture pipe. Sometimes a 1 1/2 - 2" blue flame coming from the inside end of the pipe. Sometimes, all the blast seems to occur against the wall.

"The back door being open seems to improve burn" says to me, the burner is not getting enough air. If the flame improves when the back door is opened, the burner is not getting enough air.
The opening of the back door will affect the burner but in the opposite way. With the door open you should have to readjust your fuel because now you are getting too much air, it will also slow the heating up process, primarily because now the heat has another place to escape from the forge.

If the opening of the back door immediately improves the burn then the burner is not getting enough air to ignite the fuel to its full potential!

"The the blast occurs against the wall" says to me at that moment you are getting the burn almost right! The reason it occurs against the wall has to do with the angle of the burners and the hot spot problem Vs a vortex problem that I referred too with 90* burners.

This is my same forge converted to PID and gas solenoid valves. It measures outside 22" in length x 9 3/4" diameter. The inside chamber after refractory is 6 1/2" Diameter and 18" in length!

Both ends will open, if the need should arise to forge something with a longer length than the burner chamber. The front has a sliding door so as too close down on un-needed opening. The smaller the area for heat loss translates into a faster initial heating time and the ability to bring the forge back up to forging heat in a short amount of time!

Forge006.jpg


Pictures of the flame would help to diagnose the problems but I am thinking it may be the wrong jets in it. Too get the full potential out the forge though may require some rebuilding but when the burners are properly angled to eliminate the hot spots it will help greatly! Also as big as this forge is you may have to go with a blower on the system! Normally I could locate a 25 pictures without even trying but try as I might I can't Google up a photo of what I am talking about at the moment! Anyway a blower is something I don't have on my system but it is usually not hard to find pics of how to do it!:what!:

When a flame is burning correctly, that means the right pressure on the fuel and the right amount of air for that pressure. The flame will burn blue if it is yellow then it usually means too much air or not enough pressure. If you are seeing the flame coming out blue but it appears to be breaking apart at the very end of the burn, you probably have too much pressure for the air.

Figuring out the adjustment is critical for a good burn but once you get it all you have to do is make a mental note as too the pressure you are running or the adjustment on the air valve if you are using a blown system and it is easy to duplicate the proper adjustments over and over again! I hope with all of my rambling I haven't done more too confuse you. Feel free to ask questions. If I can't help there are many others on here that are more knowledgeable about forges than myself!
 
Last edited:
Holy Cow C Craft. I drive a police package Hemi Charger and it has nothing that cool under the hood. :biggrin:

Thanks so much for taking the time to post all that. As for the hot spots, maybe, but the burners go in 23 of the way up the chamber, so they swirl pretty good. I'm definitely going to move my pressure gauge to the pressure regulator. That may solve one of my problems. I agree that it's not getting enough oxygen. So how to I give it more?

Here's a picture of it burning at (I think) the best I've gotten out of it. This is after about 45 minutes. As you can see, it is not really hot. I should also note that I can blow it out - with my breath - like a match.
IMG_20131014_193257_640.jpg


Rob!
 
Looks like you have no means of controling air flow ? It's all or nothing, some sort of choke would help in the burner tubes. +1 on moving the guage to the regulator , there's relatively a lot of acreage in those feed pipes. You won't get an accurate reading, if any, with open jets and it's remote location. If the regulator sat for a long time at a certain setting, the internals may have taken a set. My oxy/acetaline regulator did this. The burner tubes definitely are too long and will burn off sooner or later, this may help in the long run. More angle would be a plus too.

By the color of the regulator , it's probably a 'high pressure' regulator, but check to see if it's at least 0 - 30 psi rated.
Rudy
 
Last edited:
Thanks Rudy. Moving the pressure gauge should tell at least part of the story. If the pressure is low, I guess there are 2 suspects. The tank regulator and the red pressure regulator. Yes, the whole thing sat for at least about 4 years, so anything is possible. Should I try to cut the burner tubes back? Probably room to get a side grinder in there - or the sawzall. If so, How short? Just checked and the pressure regulator says 10-30psi. I moved the gauge to the regulator and it still shows nothing, so I guess I need a gauge too.

This is the easy part of the adventure right? :)

Rob!
 
Rob,
At this point I'd concentrate on the regulator and guage first. Try a 0.30 jet to start with. The guage was cheap...the regulator (for oxy/ acetaline) in my case was rebuildable but I chose to have it fixed by a smarter person than myself. The welding supply place I go to fixes stuff like that or can order a rebuild kit for you. A new regulator for propane was only around 30 bucks. If you choose to cut the tubes, I can only tell you that on all my forges I never let them protrude further than the liner, but that's with a proper angle into the forge. If left too long, the gas starts burning back inside the tube after prolonged use. Either way, after getting the forge running right, your last issue may come back to the angle of the tubes. If all else fails after cutting them flush, reposition them or sleeve them with a smaller diameter pipe that you can angle properly. Without being there , this is the best I can come up with.

Good luck,
Rudy
 
Rob,
After re-reading your post.....I noticed you said two regulators.
You might look into seeing if you need two regulators at all. If you're running on a 20 pound bottle, two regulators might be suspect in impeding the function of the one at the forge. I only use one regulator off the tank to run things.

Rudy
 
The first 'regulator is the standard BBQ hose regulator. The second one is the red one in the picture. Presume that .30 jet is a typo. Currently drilled #60 ~ .040 - doing better ( I think) that #63 (~.0370)
 
Edit:
You posted while I was trying to get this all worked up too post! As soon as I saw your post, I have this post get rid of the regular BBQ pressure regulator the red one if is a high pressure regulator can't work properly because the small one is a low pressure regulator that won't generate enough pressure!!!!



Lets see if we can get you up and running before you start cutting apart and reassembling! Like Rudy says there is no need for two pressure regulators. If the red one is a high pressure regulator it can be run this way.

Forgecarrier003.jpg


This is a rig I made up to manifold two small 20 lb. propane bottles at once to avoid freeze-up on the bottles. The hose in the pic hooks directly to the high pressure regulator just before it enters the forges gas lines. some of the pics were taken while still finalizing everything on this forge and I don't think it shows the regulator in the pic after the PID and gas valves were installed into the system. I don't store my propane tanks in my shop with all the grinding and welding I do their, they reside in a separate area until I want to fire the forge. both for safety and lack of space in my garage/shop. That blue rack I built if you look closely is sitting on a dolly. I can run up under it slap a bungie around the rack and no stress or strain to wheel it anywhere!

IMG_20131014_193257_640.jpg


The picture of the flame in your forge looks close to what it should look! One thing that stands out is how big the flame is at the end of it. If you have ever used an acetylene torch you will understand this next explanation! You can hot up the flame on a torch by pouring the acetylene to it, however when you add the air to get the adjustment right the end of the flame will adjust out to almost a point.

I am not sure about your burners themselves the flame is close in color but that is a huge flame at the end IMO! Which makes me wonder about the design of the burner you are using!

Take a look at these sites I am posting here and some of the info within them!

http://kcrucible.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/the-propane-burner/

http://ronreil.abana.org/Hybrid.shtml

Here is a picture of T-Rex burner in use

T-Rexburner_zpsfbcb8d16-1.jpeg


As you will see the flame is cooking, however it is not tuned exactly right, notice the yellow at the end of the flame, that indicates too much oxygen or too much pressure on the propane! When you dial it back till the flame is almost all blue their is no waste of propane or the heat being created!

As for the vortex effect, in other words a swirl effect, (basically eliminating hot spots) , you will eventually have to rip out and re-weld the tubes your burner enter the forge through. This will mean either a total re-lining or at the very least some patch work around the new burner tubes.

This was my original set-up,
000_1147.jpg


if you look closely right above where the burners are is where I originally had the burner tubes welded to the forge's outside, their is a patch welded on the outside of the forge above each burner. There were set-up just like yours 90* into the forge. Like I said MS Ed Caffery, was the one that clued me into what was going to happen with the hot spots and how an angled burner will create a vortex. This design was modified about three time before it got too where it is now. Even the plumbing is different in this photo!

I am not advocating that you to tear up your forge to fix this for right now! You can work with what you got for the time being! When you are heating a piece in the forge you may have to keep it moving around the forge to keep the piece from getting too hot in one area of that particular piece of metal

Your problem lays either in the the design of your burners, or the fact that the forge is so large that the fuel to air ratio is off. IMO

There are many designs for burners out their and many variations of those designs! Just because you have a flame coming out of it doesn't mean it is a good design either if you can't get the adjustment out of the burner to get heat it ain't worth two cents.

What Rudy was talking about is the key the air choke, look at this burner. It is a T-Rex.

T-Rex_zps71ae3cc8-1.jpg


Notice the slot in the back of the burner, that is the air choke for that particular model, The piece laying center of the picture is the choke plate it slids onto the burner and as it rotates around the burner it opens and closes that slot which regulates the air supply to the burner!

Here is a pic of a mongo burner,

mongo_burner_long_102_zps64980964-1.jpg


look closely and you can see the edge of a round hole that has been drilled and the silver part slides up and down to accomplish the air regulation.

This is my burner I use a choke plate as you can see in this pic, the amount that it is opened and closed regulates the air flow.

forge001.jpg


So there is a lot of ways to make adjustment here on my burner, pressure, air flow and the burner I use can be adjusted also by how far up and down the tube it slides.

There is hours of reading in some of these threads on burner design and tuning!

http://ronreil.abana.org/design1.shtml


I think your first priority since you didn't build this forge yourself is too figure out exactly how the burner is constructed! I hope some of this info helps and its OK if you are feeling a bit overloaded with information but it kind of like trying to tell someone how to fix an engine problem when you don't know exactly what is under the hood! Figure out what your burner is and then advice can become more specific too your needs!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top