hydraulic press,-how much oomph is needed?

emtore

Active Member
So, I'll be setting up a forge as soon as I buy a property,-likely to happen this summer.
I'll be doing some forge welding (damascus and san mai) and the welding will be done using a hydraulic press. Drawing out will be done by a power hammer.
Regarding the press,- it is NOT required to squish a six inch thick billet into a paper thin thickness. Only enough push to make the welds take properly.

What is the minimum oomph that is required for such work? 8, 10, 30 or more tons?
 
I have been looking a little into this. The ones I have seen have been made with log splitters 20 - 25 Ton. They take the gas motor off and put an electric motor on, increase the RPM to get the ram to cycle faster. Seem to work pretty good.
 
Largest log splitter they sell here is 35 tons. Hefty price though.
There are warehouses here that sell cheap tools, much like Harbour Freight in the US.
They sell 8 to 10 ton splitters.
I've read on a forum that in theory at least you don't need much oomph at all for forge welding since you're not attempting to move metal.
Drawing out a large billet on the other hand requires all you can throw at it and then some more.
 
Come to think of it, a motorized rolling mill would't be too bad a choice either, both for forge welding and drawing out.
 
In general, most forging presses tend to fall into the 20-30 ton range. When it comes to a forging press, it's a totally different set of requirements versus a typical machine shop type of press...... a forging press cycles through far more repetitions than a typical shop type press ever would.... and then you must also consider the heating and cooling cycles the press must endure. Long story short, a forging press must be super heavy duty and well thought out to last. Personally, I consider anything less than a 6" diameter cylinder too small.....to explain.... I've been in shops with forging presses made from 3-4" cylinders....that were running upwards of 4000psi..... that's nothing more than a time bomb waiting to "go off". At those pressures, a pin hole in a line would cut through flesh like a light saber! I simply refuse to work on forging tools like that.

Rolling mills are nice tools to have, but they are not the "bee knees" that many think they would be..... forge welding with a rolling mill often produces more failure than successes....... and when it comes to drawing out damascus, they will make any pattern into varying degrees of "chevron".....just due to the way they act upon the hot steel. Now, don't get me wrong, it's a nice to have machine, but it's not a "cure all".

Both machines are very nice to have in the shop, but they also come with learning curves that most inexperienced individuals are not aware of. The key to either being viable in a shop is that the machine be well thought out, and well built (to handle the rigors of their intended functions). While I've seen others use log splitters converted for forging, I personally would never go that route..... log splitters are just not built to endure a forging type environment...... and you're taking a huge set of safety risks.

The amount of "oomph" is a matter of individual taste. You can get forge welds set with minimal tonnage on a press...... but then you'll need more to actually draw out or "move" the steel. Personally, my forging press hosts a 8" diameter cylinder, puts out 80 tons of force, with a "structure" that weighs in at approx. 2,800lbs, and is powered by a 4 cyl Kubota diesel power unit...... but I also have had 30+ years of experience with forging presses, and often forge billets larger than others would ever consider.
 
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Mine is 20 tons and follows the Batson H press plans pretty closely. It works well for it's size but I don't make big billets for a living where time is money either. If you are a hobby or part time maker, 20 tons will work. If you are looking at full time smithing, go as big as you can.
 
Forge welding with a hammer and anvil is doable. If the surfaces are clean they tend to stick by just touching each other in the fire.
Drawing out could best be done with a power hammer. I do understand that when something says 80 tons on it, it's not a toy and will send hot metal across the shop with great speed if given half a chance. Neither are they cheap. Hydraulic lines cost a small fortune.
Forge welding with a hammer and anvil, drawing out with a power hammer will do.
 
Absolutely agree. I own/use all those tools (a press, air hammer, and a rolling mill). Each has it's place. I often get the question "Which is better to own? A press? Or a power hammer?" My response is always the same, personally I couldn't get along without either. The press is my "precision", and the air hammer is my "speed".

For years, it was just me, hand hammers, and the anvil. I reinvested in the shop/tools in order to acquire the power tools, with the idea in mind that someday I might not be physically capable of swinging a hand hammer for 10-12 hours a day like I once could......and my hope is to keep forging out steel as long as I'm vertical. The power tools are a key element in allowing that to happen. :)
 
I'm 63,-no chance of keeping up with my former self these days.

Machines should be treated with respect: -Angle grinders, hydraulic presses, propane forges etc.
These tools, although helpful, will bite back if abused or treated carelessly.
But the tool I'm most scared of in a knifemaker's shop is the soft and seemingly fluffy and harmless polishing wheels.
When they catch a knife edge, make sure you don't stand in harms way.

Many years ago I worked in a shop that buildt and repaired wooden boats.
We had an enormously large bandsaw that one of the guys were operating.
Out of nowhere I had a "vision" of the blade snapping and aiming right at me.
By instinct I jumped to the side and the next moment the blade snapped and was hurled just a few inches from my face.
It twisted violently while it went and would have given me a long stay at the hospital hadn't I reacted like I did.
Good habits working with machinetools always pays off.
 
Machines should be treated with respect: -Angle grinders, hydraulic presses, propane forges etc.
These tools, although helpful, will bite back if abused or treated carelessly.
But the tool I'm most scared of in a knifemaker's shop is the soft and seemingly fluffy and harmless polishing wheels.
When they catch a knife edge, make sure you don't stand in harms way.

I wish more folks had your wisdom! I've driven hundreds of miles to demonstrate at various hammer-ins, and refused to work in shops because of the "hob-knob" tools I was expected to use.

As to buffers, they are, without a doubt, the most dangerous piece of equipment that any shop can have! Just over a year ago one of my friends was killed by a buffer...... his wife came home to find him laying in a puddle of blood on the shop floor, with the buffer running. The autopsy revealed that a knife blade had entered his body in the right abdomen, and had lodged in his left shoulder joint.....obviously taking everything out in it's path. I'm reminded of something my Grandfather used to say when I was growing up on the farm..... "Ed, there's traps everywhere for a man."
 
That was a tragic story. Poor wife who had to come home and find her husband in such a state.
I avoid buffing wheels as best I can. I usually polish by hand using a piece of leather and polishing compound, or clamping the blade in a vice and using a hand held drill at slow speed with a buffing wheel. If it should grab the drill will jump and not the blade.
One could think that there's no danger as long as the edge of the blade is not pointed in the opposite direction of the wheel's rotation, but the spine of the knife may be grabbed as well. In my opinion a buffing wheel is only safe with round tubing. Anything with cutting edges on them is a disaster waiting to happen.
 
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Sorry for the hijack!!
As to buffers, they are, without a doubt, the most dangerous piece of equipment that any shop can have! Just over a year ago one of my friends was killed by a buffer...... his wife came home to find him laying in a puddle of blood on the shop floor, with the buffer running. The autopsy revealed that a knife blade had entered his body in the right abdomen, and had lodged in his left shoulder joint.....obviously taking everything out in it's path. I'm reminded of something my Grandfather used to say when I was growing up on the farm..... "Ed, there's traps everywhere for a man."

This kind of thing always gets my attention. I have a standard leather apron. That would not slow down anything. How many people have kevlar aprons?
 
Honestly, I'm not sure there is much of anything practical that would protect you from a buffer mishap........ maybe a full suit of armor? :)

Seriously, a buffer is just plain dangerous. My lesson came shortly after I got my first buffer.... a 3450rpm model. It grabbed a blade, punched it THROUGH the shop wall, and about 20' out into the back yard. After I changed my pants, I unplugged that buffer, and took it to a local second hand store the next day. Every since I won't have a buffer any faster than 1800rpm. That's still no guarantee of safety.....I still step up to any buffer with a death grip on what I'm buffing, and nothing else in the world exists but what I'm doing.
 
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I have a crummy HF grinder that I took the grinding wheels off of and put buffing wheels on. The grinder/buffer will actually bog down if I get to heavy handed with the material I put on it. This is a good thing. I also am very careful with the angles I approach the wheels at. That said still scares the BA-JESUS OUT OF ME!!
 
We need a thread for all these safety tips, holy crap, I’m always scared of wire wheels and refuse to use them without a face shield, I can just imagine a bristle putting my eye out or worse...
 
I have a friend that was working in a metal shop and that's exactly what happened, a co worker had a wire come off the wheel and go in his eye, they wanted to take him to the hospital, instead he went in the bathroom and pulled it out himself,
the end result was he ripped something in his eye and he's now blind in that eye.
 
I've run a Baldor 3600 rpm buffer with 10" buffer wheels for almost 19 years with - knock on wood- never losing a blade on it. I have lost small parts like screws and bolsters a few times. as for it being the most dangerous machine in the shop, I don't know.
I think whatever's running at the time is the most dangerous. the one thing I know is when running that buffer I have 100% attention on what I'm doing, there's no glancing to the side or trying to talk to someone.

All accidents can be prevented but they happen.
leaning over a running milling machine with a long sleeve shirt on is asking to have your arm ripped off,
and every time the bandsaw turns on there's the chance of bad things happening....Murphys law.
I don't think there's a machine made that at sometime hasn't killed someone.

Being sober with a clear head, concentrating at the task at hand and knowing what your doing helps prevent accidents but just like a pet tiger that you feed steak to every night......one day, if you let your guard down, that tiger may rip your head off.
 
Angle grinders . . . have been using them at a daily basis for years. No accidents, no shattered discs.
I use cutting discs with a thickness of a tiny bit more than 1/32" (1 millimeter). You'd expect them to shatter easily but they do hold up and will even take some flexing.
The thicker cutting discs are plain dangerous. Jumps around like crazy. Same thing with grinding discs,- I use flap discs instead.
Many years ago a friend cut a fender from a car, the fender flexed, the disc shattered and threw a big piece deep into his face.
He went straight down and the grinder jumped around on the ground beside his face.
 
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