I wanta make a Hamon because my name is Hammond

wmhammond

wmhammond

Well-Known Member
I am a purely stock removal guy and the only steels that I heat treat myself are O1 (Canola Oil) and 1095 (20% brine solution). Also, I heat my knife blanks with a hand held Acetylene torch from a "B" tank in a small oven built out of light weight fire bricks and I remove them to quench at the non-magnetic point. I should also say that I store my Canola Oil in a 12" cast iron Dutch Oven and I heat it up to 120* with my torch before I quench. I mix a new batch of brine before every 1095 quench. I heat the water to 140* and do the quench in a 3 gal. Stainless container. My results have been very good with O1 and pretty good with 1095(lost a few to the dreaded "plink").

With that said, could someone describe for me a method of creating a Hamon with my set-up? First, and probably most important, what steel to use? Then, I don't know whether to differentially heat the cutting edge to some point (that I don't know) and then quench the entire knife or should I heat the entire blade to non-magnetic and build a wire rack in the quench pot that will only allow a small portion of the blade edge to quench (like maybe 1/2" - 1" of submersion? Or, maybe I'm on the wrong tract totally and need a new direction. Whatever, I will appreciate and instruction/direction you can give me. Thanks so much

Wallace (I owe you guys)
 
Hamons always come out the best on shallower hardening steels such as medium carbon steel (1045-1060), and the W series steels. Higher alloy/carbon steels (such as those you mentioned) are "hit-n-miss". Probably the easiest "clay" to find is Rutland furnace cement (you can find it at Ace Hardware). Creating a hamon is a combination of everything coming together, not just one or two specific steps. In my experience the quenching isn't the most important part......it's the preparation before the quench, and the finishing after that quench that has the greatest impact on success versus failure. What I'm saying is that pretty much each maker has their own preferred method, of which they have experimented and tweaked over a number of blades to achieve the desired results....and that would be my suggestion to you.

Personally, I like to leave blade edges about the thickness of a nickel prior to heat treat.

If its a simple differentially heat treated blade that you're looking for, the simplest method is to create a "limiter plate" for your quench tanks...mine is a piece of 1/4" thick aluminum, chocked full of 3/8" holes, with 1/4-20 carriage bolts threaded into each corner.....the bolt heads face downward, acting as feet, you adjust depth my turning the bolts. Personally I seek to heat only that portion of the blade that I want to harden....in this case I would use a torch, with a #3 or #4 welding tip (depending on blade size). Holding the blade edge up, start by heating the ricasso, then work back and forth on the blade's edge (hold the flame at about 1/3-1/2 the blades width) until you get it EVENLY to temp. When its ready, point first onto the limiter plate, count to 7, then rock the rest of the edge down, count, repeat, and keep repeating until all the fumes stop coming off the quench. I then drag the blade off the limiter plate, and place it in the tank (I have slotted racks in the bottom of my quench tank).

Then go preheat your tempering oven. By the time its pre-heated, the blade will be cool enough to handle. Clean off the blade with a rag, then into the tempering oven.

Once your heat treating is complete, finish grind, then hand finish to 600-1200grit. I then give the blade a light etch in ferric chloride, neutralize it in TSP, then scrub it down with #0000 steel wool and flitz. Blade is now done, and on to the rest of the finishing process (guard/handle, etc)

I know that's a "quickie" reply, but hopefully it helps. If I missed something, just let me know and I'll try to explain it.
 
I sure didn't think that 1095 was a "hit n miss" steel for hamons. ??? It is VERY shallow hardening. Works pretty darn well from what I have seen. Spectacular hamons on 1095. 1095 can be a difficult steel to heat treat period....so maybe that is what Mr Caffrey was getting at. You mentioned that you quenched AT the non magnetic point. That point is around 1414F. You need to get the blades hotter than just non magnetic. A shade or two more, is how we say it, when going by color after the non magnetic point is reached. If you are quenching AT nonmagnetic (1414 there abouts) you are leaving meat on the table so to speak. 1475-1500F is where you should be at quench time. I am not a brine quencher, but I don't think you should warm the water/brine up at all. The canola oil...yes. Brine...no.

The only way I know to get a true hamon is with a clayed up blade. You can get a differential hardening line using edge quenching techniques, but not a proper hamon with nice activity.
 
For what it is worth, I have found 1075 (Aldo's in particular) to be about the most responsive to this technique. 1095 has some differences, but not insurmountable, one being the the habuchi area of the hamon will be more defined by ejected proeutectoid cementite rather than a thinner line, or ferrite.

P.S. also be aware that Hamon is pronounced "hah-moan" so it will not necessarily sound like Hammond's name. Many people pronounce it "hammin", but I cringe inside whenever I hear it.
 
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I agree with Kevin about the 1075 being among the best if not THE best for me and active hamon.

I've used my salts and time/temp only with no clay to get some blades with pretty active hamon.

Also, as a side benefit, the 1075 would be a better choice for heat treating yourself with simpler equipment if you lack the ability to control the time and temp that you will need to pull the maximum out of 1095.

As for 1095, I've found that it reacts much differently to the influence of the clay than the other steels. Not that it's hit or miss so much as it is a steeper learning curve to apply the clay for the results you want. These are my experiences only so I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

For me the three steels I use that I consider great for hamon are 1075, w2 and 1095.

1075 gets the most activity with the clay and the results are easy to achieve, predictable and repeatable.
w2 is a close second to 1075, requiring far less clay. Results are fairly predictable.
1095 is a distant third for me and I find the clay placement really had to be played with to get the results and activity that I wanted in the area of the blade that I wanted.
 
Like I said...everyone has their own methods, and obviously steel choices! :) I have such a dislike for 1095 that I don't even consider using it anymore.
 
It certainly isn't my favorite either Ed. :)

In fact, when what I have is gone, I doubt I'll get more. I pretty much agree with your statements about it and I've found similar experiences of my own.

You have great reasons and experience to back that up for not using it and I agree with you.
 
Ahhh.....salts. That's right I forget about salts. I dream about them....but then reality sets in. I take back what I said about hamon activity and clay being the only way I know to get great activity. It can be done with the right geometry/temp/time/quench. "Look, ma. No clay!"
 
Well, I sure do appreciate some of the "Big Dogs" weighing in on my question. If I get the jist of the method it is as follows:
1. Build some sort of a rack in my quench solution that will allow only 1/2" to 1" of the blade to go into the quench (see my drawing)

IMG_1189.jpg


2. After the blade is pre-ground (leave it a little thicker than usual) Apply heat resistant clay over the spine of the blade and down on both sides in the approximate pattern I'm looking for.
3. Heat the uncovered edge of the blade with a acetylene torch to up two colors from Non-magnetic.
4. Gradually quench the blade up to just past the clay until it slows down and then submerge the entire knife in the quench (i.e. take it out of the basket and put it entirely into the quench tank)
5. Temper ASAP
6. Finish blade as usual but with a Ferric bath in the finish process.

Don't know if I've got it or not but I think I do. What should I build my basket out of steel wire, stainless steel wire or aluminum wire). Thanks for the help guys.

Wallace "Hah-moan"
 
With clay, you shouldn't need to try to edge quench or only submerge part of the blade. When I clay quench, I quench the whole blade and let the clay do it's job. If done right, you'll still get the hamon or quench line.
 
Just to give some balance, since I have said many times that there are no “good” or “bad” steels but only bad treatments and applications, I will put in some kind words for 1095. The real problem I have found with the steel is that there were a couple of really bad batches that were being sold to knifemakers a few years back, not in the chemistry but in the mill processing. I have many metallography samples from that time that show heavy segregation and anisotropy. But I also have some other 1095, one a bit older from Europe that was one of the cleanest and finest knifemaking steels I have ever worked with, and some more recent stuff that is pretty hard to beat as well.

1095 got a negative reputation back when the standard bladesmith heat treatment was to heat to nonmagnetic and cover with ash or vermiculate to anneal and heat to nonmagnetic and drop it into some oil or water to harden. I remember those days and not much was understood about the differences between hypoeutectoids and hypereutectoids, and treating all steel with a one size fits all recipe understandably resulted in some less than optimum results for some steels. Folks who worked 1095 as if it were 5160 or 1084 found it to be miserable to deal with. 1095 is a very simple iron/carbon alloy without any additions to make it more forgiving if you deviate from what it needs to shine, add to this those really lousy segregated batches and the negative reputation makes sense. But 5160 had a run of even worse segregation and inclusions and yet since it is so forgiving if you get out of line with it is still loved by many. I have made pretty good knives from both, but not by making a big chopper out of the 1095 or a small skinner out of the 5160, and by giving each alloy exactly what it needed in thermal treatments. 1018 is a terrible steel if you are making blades and treating it like O-1, but it is a fantastic steel if you are making “I” beams. It is all about treatment and application.

Mr. Doyle is also giving very sound input on the immersion. You really want to full quench a clayed blade or omit the clay and edge quench, the two methods will sort of defeat each other if you combine them.
 
So, what I've got now is as follows:
1. After the blade is pre-ground (leave it a little thicker than usual) Apply heat resistant clay over the spine of the blade and down on both sides in the approximate pattern I'm looking for.
2. Heat the uncovered edge of the blade with a acetylene torch to up two colors from Non-magnetic.
3. Quench the entire knife (clay and all) as usual.
4.. Temper ASAP
5. Finish blade as usual but with a Ferric bath in the finish process.

OR

1. Build some sort of a rack in my quench solution that will allow only 1/2" to 1" of the blade to go into the quench
2. Heat the whole blade as usual and then gradually quench only the edge using the rack in the quench tank.
3. and then submerge the entire knife in the quench (i.e. take it out of the basket and put it entirely into the quench tank)
5. Temper ASAP
6. Finish blade as usual but with a Ferric bath in the finish process.

As far as type of steel to use with my limited heat treat set-up . . . . . well, I'm still a little confused

What should I build my basket out of? steel wire, stainless steel wire or aluminum wire). Thanks for the help guys.

Wallace "Hah-moan"
 
I'm confused about the 'basket' you're trying to make. What is it for?

You can either do a clay quench where you coat the spine and upper half of the blade with clay or you can edge quench where you use a limiter plate to quench only a desired portion of the edge. With edge quenching, you quench the tip first then rock the edge down till it hits your limiter plate and quenches the heel. You quickly rock the knife back and forth to keep the heat out of the tip and keep the whole edge and heel cool. Do this until the heat is gone from the whole knife. It takes a few minutes to edge quench.

In my opinion, with your set up and methods you would be much better off to get some 1075 from Aldo, some Rutland furnace cement from Ace Hardware and do a clay quench. It would be the easiest, quickest, least amount of messing around and you would have the best chance of a good blade with nice active hamon.

I would use the clay quench, submerge the whole blade, let the clay work and forget about edge quenching for this particular project.

And forget about the basket altogether. I still don't understand what that would be for.
 
The "Basket" would be something built out of wire that would hook over the edge of my Dutch oven and extend down into the Canola oil only a little way. I guess it would do the same thing as what you describe as a limiter plate. If I use the clay do I still heat the entire knife to non-magnetic in my oven or do I just heat the edge below the clay with my acetylene torch? Thanks, I appreciate your patients.

Wallace
 
Wallace, if you have an oven, I would heat the whole blade in the oven with the clay on it then when it's up to temp, quench the whole thing. You'll get a good heat treat with a nice hamon if everything else discussed in this thread is right.
 
I do nearly the same way John Doyle does, only a little different
Just take a non alloyed toolsteel with 1% carbon
apply clay for repairing ovens.
place it in wet condition in the furnace.
...quench edge first, hold in the quenching fluid longer because under the clay is still red. while i move constantly back and forth, I scratch off the clay already in the quenching fluid .
not tempering over 180 degrees
.....it comes by itself.......actually pretty easy to do.
good luck
 

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Wallace, you're mixing heat treating methods. If you are only austinizing the edge of the blade then you don't need the clay or the rack in your quenchant to limit the immersion of the blade. Just do a full quench. The hammon will occur at the border of the martensite that converted from the austinite and the pearlite that was not converted. If you are going to clay or edge quench austinize the whole blade.

Doug
 
I agree with what everyone has said so far. I would like to add that the Hitachi White makes a really dramatic Hamon too, if you can get it. Its quite high in carbon, but is very pure and has the lowest manganese of any carbon steel currently on the market (at least that I know about.) 1095 is OK in my experience, but is closer to 1084 than the W2, 1075, or Hitachi White. Aldo's 1/8" 15N20 will get a decent hamon too. Its about the same as 1095. His thinner stock has more manganese, its a different batch, so don't bother with it if you want a hamon.

Results will be hit or miss with torch heat. I find even going 10F above the optimum decreases the activity in the transition.

I would consider using heated white vinegar, or heated lemon juice to etch, then polish with 1500g powdered abrasives. Theyre cheap on ebay as rock polishing abrasives. It takes 5 to 10 etch/polish cycles to really bring out the hamon, but its great. Here is an example of one I did this fall:

15813355471_25e025f2c9_c.jpg
[/URL]IMG_5926 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

and a clayless hamon:

15424143847_3293bcdc36_c.jpg
[/URL]IMG_5899 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

These are Aldo's W2.

Here's 1095 and 15N20 for comparison (these were made winter 2013, so the finish work leaves a lot to be desired.)

11039425974_5477f3b984_c.jpg
[/URL]100_2273 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
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wmhammond said:
The "Basket" would be something built out of wire that would hook over the edge of my Dutch oven and extend down into the Canola oil only a little way. I guess it would do the same thing as what you describe as a limiter plate. If I use the clay do I still heat the entire knife to non-magnetic in my oven or do I just heat the edge below the clay with my acetylene torch? Thanks, I appreciate your patients.

Wallace
Click to expand...

Here's what I do. Its what works for me, and you will find what works for you may be different, as it is for each smith.

I rough grind the knife. I get the edge to about 0.040", and have the blade evenly sanded to 120g. The clay doesn't pop off too early for me when I stay at 120g. It was hit or miss when sanded at 400g. Clean all oil, wax, fingerprints before applying clay. Make sure there are no rough edges or gouges, especially around the plunges/ricasso. Make sure there are no leftover scratches from the 60 or 36g belts. They may rear their head during the etch. Some people coat the entire blade with a wash of clay. That doesn't work with me for the brand I use. Try it with and without to see for yourself which you prefer. You don't need a lot of clay, max 1/8" at the thickest.

I let the clay set while I bring the oven up to temp. I use 1460f for W2 and 1095, 1465 for 15N20, and 1440for Hitachi White. I have only done two blades in 1075, and am still experimenting. I found 1450 too cool, and 1475 a bit on the warm side. My next one will be 1460. As a note, the 1075 blades are 1/4" thick, compared to the much thinner kitchen knives. This will affect soak and quench times. I use Maxim DT-48, which is similar to parks 50. In the kitchen blades, I use very thin clay, and I quench 2 seconds, out for three, in for three, out for 5 then finish the quench. I find this really enhances the drama in the ashi. Its safer to use a slightly thicker clay and just quench, but the drama is more subdued. The top kitchen knife in my previous post was done this way. It gives a mix of clay and time/temp activity, with extra cloudy action. You can do the same thing without a commercial oil, by using brine for the first quench to beat the pearlite nose, then subsequent dips in heated canola oil. You will risk a cracked blade every so often, but its mostly safe, maybe...

As the steel gets thicker, it gets a bit easier as a wedge cross section will try to naturally form a hamon. You will need to adjust the heat, amount of clay, and time in and out of quench to get the desired effect.

After tempering. I go back to 120g on the grinder, and clean everything up, then go to structured abrasives in u200, u100, u65, then u45. (approx 150, 220, 320, 400g) I can see the hamon clearly as soon as I get through the decarb in steels that do a hamon well. The 15N20 shows between 220 and 400g, depending on something I haven't quite figured out. The finer you hand sand, the more detail that will come out. The kitchen knives were only sanded to 1000g, as they are users. The finer you go in the kitchen, the more you have problems with food stiction.

I do the first etch in heated white vinegar, about a 15 min soak, then neutralize with windex. Polish with the powdered abrasives mixed with water to a toothpaste consistency. Clean then etch with a makeup pad and heated lemon juice. Focus on the fully hard parts of the blade. Oh, I forgot, put a few drops of dishsoap in the vinegar and lemon juice, it acts as a surfactant. Repeat until you are happy, or are worried you are losing your mind. If you don't have powdered abrasives, you can use rubbing compound from the auto store.

Don't get too obsessed. Its definitely a process that either wows you, or makes you want to quit.
 
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