Nevermind

You’re right-there will be some strong opinions on this. I’ve seen many statements similar to “there’s nothing new under the sun” when it comes to knife design/shapes. Therefor, it’s basically a free for all. Personally, I don’t feel that way. I have seen many knives that I REALLY liked-the shape and proportions were just so well done. In cases where I wanted to try and emulate one of those knives, I’ve contacted the makers for permission. I’ve had only 1 ask me not to. I make sure in my correspondence to tell them I don’t have any expectation that they say okay and that I’m a hobbyist. I don’t depend on the knives to put food on my table and the last thing I ever want to do is “take advantage” of someone else’s very well thought out design.

I think one of the easiest ways to help your cause out is if I’m making a knife strongly based/influenced on another’s knife, give credit. I’m so far behind so many of the guys who have been kind enough to talk with me and consent to as close of a copy as I can make that I don’t think they’re exactly “threatened” by me :). Lin Rhea, Karl Andersen, and Raphael Durand are among those names. I’ve been surprised many times by just how helpful and kind various makers have been when I’ve contacted them. I’d encourage anyone to try and reach out and direct a maker about his/her design. You might be pleasantly surprised by what they’re willing to share with you.

Jeremy
 
If you look throughout history, even going back 1000's of years, you can see similarities in designs that span continents. Take the falcata vs the kukri for instance. There are several fixed blades and swords that share almost identical geometry, because people saw what worked, and they copied it, or maybe they reduced the designs to what would work, and they found a common denominator.
There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but probably less ways to make the most effective cat skinner. :D

All that said, there are in fact certain "famous" patterns that are widely copied, Loveless's (several of them in fact) being probably at the top of the list. In most cases, makers will generally still attach his name to the pattern, such as "Loveless inspired" or even just calling it a Loveless knife.
Many of them are copied, not just because they are work, or are great designs, but because they're part of history

Personally, I still think it can be a bit of a fine line / balancing act. I've even seen people blowing up about other makers using the same name to describe a folder model or line of knives, even though the knives in question look nothing alike. It can definitely get a bit muddy.
 
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as said above, there is almost nothing new under the sun. if I make a chef's knife, it had better look like what Sabatier and Wusthof sells or folks will look at something else. same with paring knives, slicers, butcher, cleavers..... you get the idea. you make your product different by the steel used, the heat treat, the weight and balance, and handle.
 
It’s an interesting question you pose. I have chosen not to make the one that the one maker asked me not to. He was certainly polite and made mention of the significant work he put into the design which made it somewhat unique. He has the task of making knives well enough to feed his family. I plan to make a knife of that genre for myself at some point, but it won’t be of his specific model.

The liner lock I’m currently working on is heavily based on Raphael Durand's knife. I am pretty sure his is a slip joint, but I wanted a liner lock. He was very gracious and told me to go for it and once I got it made, he hoped I’d show him the finished product. I plan to. It’s nowhere near as elegant as his, in my opinion and the blade shape didn’t turn out exactly the same, but the whole thing is pretty close. I made it clear to him that it wouldn’t be something for sale, as well-just for me. If he’d told me no, I would have ended up honoring that. I don’t think that’s necessarily the “right” or only way of doing things. But it’s the way I’ve chosen to go about it.

Jeremy
 
This is my opinion, but why dont makers call and ask permission to make a lock back, frame lock, liner lock, etc? At what point does a lock design become OK to use by anyone? How about after 17 years when a patent expires? Does that seem fair? Because it does to me. I waited a LONG time before I started selling the knives I like to make because I wanted to be on the up and up. Now after a crock of bureaucratic bullshnot somehow allowed a certain company to bypass federal patent laws, I have to maintain an underground status and sell only to people who I know personally. If that makes me a thief to whoever reads this, IDC.
 
when you get into mechanical design of a folding knife, yes i can see unique components that could be covered by patent. if one had the time, you could reverse engineer it and make a copy.
 
looking at a design and RE-making it with your own character
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I think that statement says far more then many realize. With a given level of time/experience every Knifemaker instills attributes/characteristics to the knives they make, that makes any given design uniquely theirs. That being said, I think each situation is also unique. Using myself as an example, I have reproduced several very recognizable designs over the years, always at a client's request. The caveat being, that creating such a piece is only done after contacting the individual known for the design, and acquiring his/her permission. That's simply one of the rules that I hold myself to. Obviously, each individual maker's opinion will vary.

When it comes to patents on knives, they are a lengthy and expensive thing to achieve, and if/when achieved, are difficult to enforce.... with the enforcement falling completely on the patent holder. As Scott mentioned, knives routinely fall under mechanical patents, and within that realm, if any element of the design is altered by 1/64", then there is legally no infringement.

Although it sounds overly simple, it boils down to each individual maker doing "the right thing".
 
Yes, but patents have expiration dates. 17 years of having a design all to yourself is more than fair. What if one car manufacturer had exclusive rights to build vehicles with an automatic transmission forever? Or only one company was allowed to produce sliding windows for houses from now till kingdom come? As a little man getting by in my garage, I'm not going to be drug through the courts by a world renowned knife manufacturer who somehow managed to get a judge to sign off on a patent extension that bypassed federal laws.
 
mike-E said:
Yes, but patents have expiration dates. 17 years of having a design all to yourself is more than fair. What if one car manufacturer had exclusive rights to build vehicles with an automatic transmission forever? Or only one company was allowed to produce sliding windows for houses from now till kingdom come? As a little man getting by in my garage, I'm not going to be drug through the courts by a world renowned knife manufacturer who somehow managed to get a judge to sign off on a patent extension that bypassed federal laws.
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i worked for the company that developed CV joints. they patented it in such a way, that all CV joint makers pay them a licensing fee.
 
On the opposite side of that coin you have some makers who have tried to reserve some element of blade design that has be in common use for years (maybe centuries) as their own. It was not long ago that I read that one of the commercial knife makers tried to send out cease and desist orders to small makers claiming the term san mai as a trade mark of his company.

Doug
 
scott.livesey said:
i worked for the company that developed CV joints. they patented it in such a way, that all CV joint makers pay them a licensing fee.
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The cv joint was invented by an engineer at the ford motor corp in 1926. There have been many different iterations since then that have been patented. One of the last ones was invented in 1999, which means that patent expired in 2016. If manufacturers wanted to use that particular design they would have had to pay royalties until that date.
Do you think the inventor of the liner lock gets a royalty check every time a company makes one?
 
I really do not think there are many knives that havent been made . I had a maker say that I copied his design , on having a look through my Knife books I was able to point out that the fact that knife he had made to his supposed design had been made years before.
 
mike-E said:
The cv joint was invented by an engineer at the ford motor corp in 1926. There have been many different iterations since then that have been patented. One of the last ones was invented in 1999, which means that patent expired in 2016. If manufacturers wanted to use that particular design they would have had to pay royalties until that date.
Do you think the inventor of the liner lock gets a royalty check every time a company makes one?
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interesting that the company sold ford 75% of the axle assemblies they use. the company continues to make changes in design which keeps it ahead of any other makers
on knives, most basic designs have been around for a long time.
 
I have a question to add to this. when I first started out I bought a bunch of those half finished knives you just put handles on and sell. My plan was to use them to practices my handles and to sell them cheaper than I would something I hand made but to clearly mark that I did not make these knives just put handles on them. Is that okay?
 
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Guindesigns said:
I have a question to add to this. when I first started out I bought a bunch of those half finished knives you just put handles on and sell. My plan was to use them to practices my handle and to sell them cheaper than I would something I handle made but to clearly mark that I did know make these knives just handled them. Is that okay?
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You can do what ever you want. There is no law, rule or otherwise that says you can't put handles on blade blanks and sell them as full custom. I think it's shady to represent them as full custom knives. You will also get a lot of push back from knife makers that know the difference plus your reputation will be damaged - a lot.

Putting handles on blade blanks and representing them as pre-finished blade blanks isn't misleading at all and many do that. I see them at knife shows all the time. I know several people making a living doing that. In fact much of "the public" mostly thinks this is how it is done. All blade blanks are not junk, many are but not all. I can show you some damascus ones made in the USA that are as good as any.
 
BossDog said:
You can do what ever you want. There is no law, rule or otherwise that says you can't put handles on blade blanks and sell them as full custom. I think it's shady to represent them as full custom knives. You will also get a lot of push back from knife makers that know the difference plus your reputation will be damaged - a lot.

Putting handles on blade blanks and representing them as pre-finished blade blanks isn't misleading at all and many do that. I see them at knife shows all the time. I know several people making a living doing that. In fact much of "the public" mostly thinks this is how it is done. All blade blanks are not junk, many are but not all. I can show you some damascus ones made in the USA that are as good as any.
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Ok well I will not be saying they are mine. They were bought to practices my handling and then make quick a little quick cash for the knives I will be making from scratch.
 
There are many times I have no idea who should get credit for a knife shape or design. I like Nessmucks but George Washington Sears did not create that style knife he only said it was a good design and touted its usefulness. I actually have not ever put a knife out there as my original design. The one time I sat down with a piece of steel and drew freehand a knife design on the steel and made the knife from that drawing two weeks later when searching for sheaths I saw a knife that looks just like the one I "designed". I have not attempted an original again because unless I made the knife look like something that belongs on a Klingon Warship I know I will just find it in some magazine somewhere.
 
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