Plistix versus ITC-100....my findings

EdCaffreyMS

EdCaffreyMS

"The Montana Bladesmith"
Recently I relined my welding forge. While waiting for a new supply of ITC-100 to come in, I was introduced to a product called Plistix.

The cost difference between the two was major, so I wanted to see what, if any difference there is between the two in the application of coating a welding forge interior.

I freshly relined my welding forge.......coated 1/2 of the interior of the interior with Plistx, and 1/2 with ITC-100. It's been a week now, of running the forge daily, and what I have found is that there are major differences between the two products.

For starters, my welding forge, fully coated with ITC-100 idles along at about 2350-2375F...taking less than 10 mins to reach temp. and the interior glows a bright yellow/white.
With the 1/2 and 1/2 coating, it was difficult to reach 2350F, and it took approx. 40 mins to get there.

Upon the first "firing" after the reline/cure, there was a terribly noxious odor, which gave me a monster headache, even with the gable fans running in the shop. That odor has never occurred before, so I can only attribute it to the Plistix.

Looking into the forge once it reaches temp, it's night/day between the area coated with ITC, and the area coated with Plistix......
The area covered with ITC is bright yellow/white, and the area coated with Plistix is a dull orange.....to me this indicated that the ITC was reflecting the majority of the heat, where the Plistix was absorbing/transferring most of the heat.

After shutting the forge down and allowing it to cool, I used a flashlight to examine the interior of the forge. The area coated with ITC was clean and smooth, but the Plistix area was "spider cracked". (I did this after the second day of using the forge with the 1/2 & 1/2 interior coating)

After the first couple of days, I got tired of waiting so long for the forge to heat up. The next day I mixed up another batch of ITC slurry and coated over the Plistix area. I let it cure out, and then fired the forge today, for the first time since re-coating that area. The forge is back to the way I am used to. Heats to 2350F+ in less than 10 mins, and is so bright it's difficult to look into.

My assessment is that there is a major difference between ITC and Plistix, at least for a welding forge, in favor of the ITC.
That doesn't mean that Plistix isn't useful. Although I've not tried it, I think it might be a good alternative for coating a general purpose forge....say something that runs in the 2000F range, and is used for general forging of "straight" steels. I would think that by using it, a forge would consume more fuel, but then again the cost of Plistix is about 1/5 of ITC-100, so it would likely even out, or maybe even be a slight cost savings versus ITC.

After this experiment, I would have to say that for coating the interior of a welding forge, ITC-100 is still the best available resource for the job.
 
I have a solid cast forge with kaowool insulation on the outside. It takes at least 30 min. to heat up. Do you think ITC-100 would make a difference in the heat up time?.


I wonder if the coating thickness would be an important variable in your comparison. I bought a bag of Plistix but have not tried it yet.

ernie
 
I tried to mix each of the coatings (plistix and ITC) to about the consistency of latex paint, and then "painted" it on with a cheap paintbrush.....it was a thin coat. I've found that with ITC, anything more is just a waste of the product, but possibly a thicker coat might enhance the Plistix.

I think a coating of ITC would help a castable forge heat up quicker...it reflects a LOT of heat. It certainly wouldn't make a castable forge heat up as quickly as a ceramic wool one, just because of the different characteristics of the refractory materials, but I suspect it would make a noticeable difference.
 
ITC-100 works well in my small (nonwelding) forge. The interior is about 4 1/2" by 10" with just one inch of inswool and maybe a quarter inch of satanite. The interior starts a partial glow within seconds and is ready to go within ten minutes. I get twelve hours of running time off of four gallons of propane in a bbq tank. I've never tried plistix, but ITC-100 seems to help out in my case.

Thanks for doing the look at plistix. Always good to have options and juggle the best bang for the buck, Craig
 
The best deal I've found on ITC-100 is from this outfit..... http://www.baileypottery.com/kilns/kilnmaterials.htm

Scroll down the page until you get to the ITC products. The only drawback for me is that they are in NY, and I'm in Montana...takes about 1 1/2 weeks for it to get here via UPS.
I purchase the 1/2 gallon size container....that's enough to last me for about 2 years of relining my welding forge about every 2-3 months.

If anybody else has/can find it at better prices, please post it up!
 
Ed, thanks for doing this comparison, though the results were not what I would expect.
I have never noticed any odor associated with either ITC 100 or Plistix.
I have used both products and as IG stated we can tell no difference between ITC 100 and Plistix, though I don't know of anyone else doing a side by side comparison.
I also don't understand the "spidering" unless it is associated with putting on a thick coat and the product not being thinned enough. I recommend thinning Plistix with water to a very soupy consistency.
My test for the efficiency of Plistix is that I built a forge for one of my students out of a 20# propane bottle. The front and back doorways were 7.5" diameter with a flat bottom. The forge burner was an inline venturi. The forge was lined with 1" of Inswool and over that was abut 1//2" of Kast-0-Lite 3000 (a light weight insulating castable). The floor had 2" of Inswool and Kast-0-Lite cast over that.
After the casting had cured I put in a piece of 1" square and timed how long it took the metal to come up to forging temp. It took 11 minutes.
The next day I painted the forge with Plistix and waited for it to dry. Then I put in the same piece of 1" square stock and fired the the forge off. This time it took the metal 6 minutes to come to forging temp.
My forge is made from a 30# propane bottle. Construction is the same as above except that I have 2 1" T Rex Hybrid Burners.
I can have the forge running all day long and still can touch the outside shell with my bare hand. Now, I did not say that I hugged it, nor was I grabbing it. I just touch it.
I have had others report similar reductions in heating time and shell temps.
Thanks again for performing this study.
 
Ed,
I was waiting for your results. They match mine. Last fall I rebuilt one forge, and built a seperate welding forge, and used plistix. I could not get over 2150, so I coated over the plistix with the ITC 100. No problem now. I know this wasn't exactly a sientific test, but I know what works for me. Thanks for posting your results.
 
It was obvious that the Plistix didn't reflect heat like ITC did/does, but I think that because of the much lower cost, Plistix would likely be my choice for coating a general purpose forge....one where the temps didn't exceed 2100F.
 
I coated my cast forge with plistix. It normally takes 30 min to get up to temp. the coating seemed to help, cutting the heatup by a third. At 45 min it was getting too bright to look in. I welded up a billet and drew it out with out a problem.

I did not detect any smoke or unusual smell.
ernie
 
The second day forging with the plistix coating showed a big improvment. The forge got up to temperature in half the time. The coating now looks bright white and I can see dull spots where I didn't get a good coating.

The rough lumps of coated over flux in the bottom of the forge look dark, I think the coating was absorbed by the flux.

The forge is now running so hot that I can't stand directly in front of it.

I think the coating must have some binder that needs to burn off before it works well. In any case it made a big difference with my cast forge.

ernie
 
Thanks for posting that Ed. I used Cone 10 Porcelain Slip in my gas forge and it gets to a bright orange. I am not doing any welding so it works for me but I will file this away.
The Cone 10 Porcelain Slip is very inexpensive. When I get to the point I need to re line my Forge I think I will buy the ITC 100.
 
Ed,
Do you think the results would or could be different if you did the same tests using 2 forges built the exact same way with one forge coated with Plistix and and the other with ITC 100? Seems like having it 1/2 and 1/2 may lead to the performance blending where the 2 meet up. While the ITC is much more expensive, the benefits are fuel savings are substantial. Since my heart attack I have yet to finish my new forge, and was planning to use Plistix. With this information, I do believe I will be changing to the ITC 100. I know it may not be cost effective for a non welding forge, BUT, if it saves on fuel consumption no matter what the application is, it still saves money in the long run. Isn't that the reason why we stared using refractories to begin with, getting to the desired temp as quickly as possible? So if your desired temp is 2000 degrees and you get to that temp in "X" amount of time, wouldn't you be able to reduce the psi by a pound or 2?

Thanks for doing a great test and especially for sharing the results! Once I get the new forge built I think I'm going to build another so I can do some real world tests like you guys do! I was planning on building another one anyway, just to tweak my design and add some ammenities that this doesn't have. Then again, I have thought about building one that was totally different. The forge body would still be round, but it wouldn't be completley circular. Kind of a rounded triangle shape with it being wider at the base and narrower towards the top, keeping the sides rounded to get the "swirl".

It's just an idea, and I have NO IDEA if it will work better or at all! Can picture what I'm thinking, the sides would be flat(ish), but the corners would be rounded. Does that make any sense at all? Do you see where I'm trying to go with it? Tell me what you think, I haven't seen one like it, of course there maybe a reason for that! Thanks Buddy, I appreciate you sharing all the info you share,
 
Well, I've never used the Plistix, but the ITC-100 has definitely earned my respect.
I'm still not completely knowledgeable of the underlying principles at work; all I know is that somehow it reflects heat.

Similar temps using less fuel, higher temps with same amount of fuel, achieving temps faster. What's the correct answer? However we look at it, all I know is it works for me.

Almost makes me want to take a brush and put some inside my electric kiln, too. Anybody tried that yet?
 
I do have inside my heat treat oven! The first time I tried it in the heat treat oven, I got a "dribble" here and there on the heating element, and it caused the element to burn out! Needless to say I had to put in a new element, so after taking the old element out, I "painted" the interior with ITC while I was waiting on a new element to arrive. A week later, when the new element came in, I installed it and things have worked great since! Prior to the ITC, my oven would take nearly 3 hours to reach 2000F and steady out. Now it takes about two hours, and doesn't cycle nearly as much as it did prior to the ITC. So yes, it will help, but either take out the element(s), or make darn sure you don't get ANY ITC on it....otherwise your likely gona be replacing it.

Rex: The forge that I tested in is an "odd" shaped forge. To explain, I took a 12" dia X 18" piece of well casing, split it down each side (lengthwise), and added 6" into each side. After the kawool was installed, the interior is oval shaped, 16" front door to back door, and 10" from side to side. I did it to reduce the "wasted" interior space, and still allow me to get 16" of welding heat on a billet. Most any design CAN work, as long as there are no corners or sharp angles. The further you get away from a true round, the more likely and prevalent "hot spots" become.
 
EdCaffreyMS said:
Rex: The forge that I tested in is an "odd" shaped forge. To explain, I took a 12" dia X 18" piece of well casing, split it down each side (lengthwise), and added 6" into each side. After the kawool was installed, the interior is oval shaped, 16" front door to back door, and 10" from side to side. I did it to reduce the "wasted" interior space, and still allow me to get 16" of welding heat on a billet. Most any design CAN work, as long as there are no corners or sharp angles. The further you get away from a true round, the more likely and prevalent "hot spots" become.
Click to expand...

Thanks Ed!
That makes complete sense, the main reason I was thinking of that is to maximize the area of the forge floor, I'm not sure if the benefits are worth the extra hassle, I just get ideas ALL the freakin time, and there seems to be a little monster in me that wants to know if this will work or will that work. If I ever get financially stable enough to persue some of my ideas, who knows what could happen! It's not that I'm ever looking at improving anything, or trying to make anything already good, better, my brain seems to "wonder", it just throws up questions at me that sometimes makes me want to know if it could be better.

I also have a problem with originality, everything I create I want to be original, VERY difficult in knife making, unless you're designing a new mechanism, just about all knife designs (shapes) have been done at some point in time. Does that bother anyone else? It is a pain, and may just be a creativity issue. Or it's just me being my normal freaky self!

I'm hoping I can get my shop back in order very soon, and get the juices flowing again, recovery is slow going! Paitience isn't usually a problem for me, for this it is! I am reconsidering BLADE, although I wont be able to do more than 2 days, 1 may be more like it, I'm still leaving my options open! I would so hate to miss even one, all I can say is we'll see! Rex
 
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