Proposed Ivory Ban

J

jkf96a

Well-Known Member
For those of you who appreciate ivory on a knife, the following was posted on the facebook page of the Knifemaker's Guild.

From yesterday: "Ivory in danger. A Presidential Advisory Committee met in Washington today where many are calling for a total ban on all ivory sales within the US borders making no distinction in fossil, mammoth antique or even what species. Several groups including Natural Resources Defense Council and World Wildlife Fund are standing behind this effort. The 6 tons of ivory crushed November 14, 2013 by the US Fish and Wildlife Department got this ball rolling."

From today:
"Ivory Ban - The Presidential Advisory Committee that met 12/16/13 does plan to recommend a total ban of ivory within the US to the task force on Wildlife Trafficking. If you want to oppose that action please email ACWT@FWS.GOV before December 28th when they file their report."

Send an email!
 
When you send the email, one way to express this is to point out that an outright ban on all ivory would only serve to punish those people who have followed the laws over the years in their collecting and use of ivory and products with ivory on them. This is particularly the case with fossil ivory. Because of the actions of a few people who break the law, then compounded by politically correct people who are knee-jerking decisions, good people who have lived by the letter AND the spirit of the law will be the ones punished and hurt.

Imagine all the investment in perfectly legal fossil ivory that has been made over the years, only to have that become instantly useless and of no value.

Something like this would kill the collector market for knives and carvings because the people who currently have fossil ivories, legally, would find themselves bankrupt in a heartbeat.

The economic devastation would be enormous. Not for the criminals, but for the people who followed the law.

I think you would see a huge problem just in the cutlery business, not to mention other areas of the economy.
What will Alaskan natives, who survive on subsistence hunting and digging for fossil ivory do?

Lots of people will get hurt just because they acted within the law.

t
 
I like Ivory on a Elephant even more!
I ask you? Should these animals be wiped from the face of the earth for vain jewelry & art around the world?

Mammoth and Mastodon ancient walrus fossilized ivories should remain legal.
I do agree with a US & world wide ban on all futher sales of modern ivories. Most people don't know enough to decere the difference and they need to be educated.

The pressure on Elephants and my namesake Rhino's is far to great from poaching of these fine animals that will only be left in zoos within our lifetimes at the present rate. Its called wise stewardship. We are at the top and its our job to use & protect these resources wisely.

I am sending a letter to my rep informing him of the difference and the need to change this effort.
 
rhinoknives said:
I like Ivory on a Elephant even more!
I ask you? Should these animals be wiped from the face of the earth for vain jewelry & art around the world?

Mammoth and Mastodon ancient walrus fossilized ivories should remain legal.
I do agree with a US & world wide ban on all futher sales of modern ivories. Most people don't know enough to decere the difference and they need to be educated.

The pressure on Elephants and my namesake Rhino's is far to great from poaching of these fine animals that will only be left in zoos within our lifetimes at the present rate. Its called wise stewardship. We are at the top and its our job to use & protect these resources wisely.

I am sending a letter to my rep informing him of the difference and the need to change this effort.
Click to expand...

What exactly IS the difference? I imagine if I took a fresh tusk that's been recently harvested, rubbed a little dirt on it and threw it down some stairs, I could tell someone it was 100,000,000 years old and they'd have little way of proving different, outside of perhaps a labratory analysis, which isn't exactly/always fool proof.

While I agree that it'd be ideal to see the barbaric butchering/poaching of rhinos and elephants come to an end, I'm afraid that this is somewhat of an all or nothing proprosal.
 
A U.S. ban on ivory does nothing to stop the poaching in Africa that is driven by African trade with other unscrupulous countries.

All this will do is punish those that are doing things legally. Pretty much just like any other government ban on anything else. The good people follow the rules while the bad continue to do whatever they want.

It's pure laziness and putting on a front on the governments' part. They 'appear' to be doing something to the general public so they get some praise about 'doing the right thing' while in reality, a blanket ban is the easiest, cheapest and best way to ignore a problem.

Again like anything else, what it takes is dedication, commitment and funding to stop the poaching directly. This ban will not save a single elephant or any other animal's life.

And to further their self righteous 'look at me, I'm doing something to save elephants' attitude, they crush 6 tons of ivory proving what? Did crushing that ivory save any animal's life? How about using that ivory for art, carving, knife handles.....anything besides destroying it so it's worthless for everyone on the entire planet.

How about maybe selling that 6 tons of ivory and using the proceeds to catch and punish the poachers in Africa and punish the countries responsible for driving the trade?

Or maybe all of the above is just WAY too much common sense for government.
 
Ken,

Use whatever of my text makes sense.

The effects are very far reaching in the case of an outright ban of everything:


  • antiques of all kinds with inlay or ivory/bone decoration. Imagine a nice piece of furniture with inlay or knobs. If you sell it as it is with a ban in place, then you are breaking the law. If you remove the ivory, the piece is either destroyed, or the value is ruined because it is no longer original.
  • bagpipes, guitars, pianos, violins, cellos, etc. etc., millions and millions of musical instruments that would be rendered valueless
  • Knives, guns, did I say guns? Yes! Guns that would become unsaleable.
  • Carvings, scrimshaw, items of historical importance.
  • Estate pieces including trophies, carvings, furniture, etc. etc.
  • And the list would continue as long as I had time to keep going.

Billions of dollars in all kinds of goods from knives to guitars would be rendered lumps of coal, unmarketable and value-less.

Why not make all diamonds illegal to buy and sell because of blood diamonds coming out of Africa.
Or are human lives less valuable than elephants?

Imagine what the world would be like if there could be bans on everything that was not politically correct.

How about we ban the goods in the big box stores that are produced in countries which allow starvation wages, inhumane living conditions, disease and loss of human life? Again, are human beings less important than elephants? And you all know that there are a huge number of goods produced by people who are not paid or treated with even a trace of human decency. Sweat shops, child labor, etc. These things exist and we know it. Yet those products are displayed in the box stores and online merchants for cheap and people buy them every day. A human rights violation in every box! Where are our priorities?

If you thought the housing crisis took the wind out of the USA, imagine what a ban on ivory could do.
And then the next ban, and the next and the next.

It is an economic nightmare that would reach into all areas of life.

Yes, no one wants elephants to die. On that we can all agree.
At the same time, common sense should prevail.
All-or-nothing government imposed solutions are not the answer.

We have not even discussed the ramifications and cost to enforce such a ban.
If you think the court systems are clogged now . . . . . .

Just think about it, then do something about it.
Whether you use ivory or not, you will be effected.

Be sensible and keep our priorities straight.

and be good to yourselves, always.

t
 
ARCustomKnives said:
What exactly IS the difference? I imagine if I took a fresh tusk that's been recently harvested, rubbed a little dirt on it and threw it down some stairs, I could tell someone it was 100,000,000 years old and they'd have little way of proving different, outside of perhaps a labratory analysis, which isn't exactly/always fool proof.

While I agree that it'd be ideal to see the barbaric butchering/poaching of rhinos and elephants come to an end, I'm afraid that this is somewhat of an all or nothing proprosal.
Click to expand...

Andrew,
There is a physical difference my friend in that Mammoth and other ancients have undergone "fossilization" a replacement of minerals into the organic item weather plant or animal and most importantly those animals are already extinct!

http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html

The vivid colors and that most desired Blue color in ancient ivories is from this process.

You would also be able to tell the diff from a Green tusk and aged tusk of modern ivories with just a little education. There are ways to treat green ivories chemically to make them look aged as well.
Guys like Tim of Rootes of Ohio could tell diff very quickly on chemically treated stuff..

The best way to end poaching is to shoot the damn poachers. "See I am not a fuzzy headed Liberal"
A few years back some of the african counties did this and it worked! The amount of poaching reported dropped to almost none.
 
rhinoknives said:
Andrew,
There is a physical difference my friend in that Mammoth and other ancients have undergone "fossilization" a replacement of minerals into the organic item weather plant or animal and most importantly those animals are already extinct!

http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html

The vivid colors and that most desired Blue color in ancient ivories is from this process.

You would also be able to tell the diff from a Green tusk and aged tusk of modern ivories with just a little education. There are ways to treat green ivories chemically to make them look aged as well.
Guys like Tim of Rootes of Ohio could tell diff very quickly on chemically treated stuff..

The best way to end poaching is to shoot the damn poachers. "See I am not a fuzzy headed Liberal"
A few years back some of the african counties did this and it worked! The amount of poaching reported dropped to almost none.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight Laurence.

As for your solution of reducing poaching... you might have something there! :2guns:
 
Hunters used to be advised to shoot poachers I believe. Banning fossilized Ivory is like banning rocks. The animals are long since dead and it hurts nothing. Hunting Elephants in some places is very helpful as it helps the locals and believe it or not they are overpopulated and cause great damage. I don't want any fresh ivory but banning fossilized is just Ignorant and Stupid.
 
rhinoknives said:
Andrew,
There is a physical difference my friend in that Mammoth and other ancients have undergone "fossilization" a replacement of minerals into the organic item weather plant or animal and most importantly those animals are already extinct!

http://www.livescience.com/37781-how-do-fossils-form-rocks.html

The vivid colors and that most desired Blue color in ancient ivories is from this process.

You would also be able to tell the diff from a Green tusk and aged tusk of modern ivories with just a little education. There are ways to treat green ivories chemically to make them look aged as well.
Guys like Tim of Rootes of Ohio could tell diff very quickly on chemically treated stuff..

The best way to end poaching is to shoot the damn poachers. "See I am not a fuzzy headed Liberal"
A few years back some of the african counties did this and it worked! The amount of poaching reported dropped to almost none.
Click to expand...

The actual way to tell the difference between Mammoth and elephant ivory would be to examine the schreger lines.
 
racjarrett88 said:
Hunters used to be advised to shoot poachers I believe. Banning fossilized Ivory is like banning rocks. The animals are long since dead and it hurts nothing. Hunting Elephants in some places is very helpful as it helps the locals and believe it or not they are overpopulated and cause great damage. I don't want any fresh ivory but banning fossilized is just Ignorant and Stupid.
Click to expand...

There is the issue of herd management, I do see know that the hunting of some Elephants can be beneficial to the locals with jobs and meat etc and they will have to deal with their game management issues.

This is one of the many related topics that the Ivory issue brings up. A few of the counties have gone the route of "Eco-Tourist" with sustained grow of jobs for the local with us rich folk flying in from around the world to go on camera safari instead of hunting safari's.

Here is a Trust I and my wife sponsor an orphaned Rhino with Little Solio.

http://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.org
On our list is a trip to this part of the world to see the work these folks do with the animals.
 
Schreger lines

Yes, the schreger lines in mammoth or mastodon interior run at an acute angle up near 115 degrees.
In contemporary elephant ivory, the schreger lines run more toward 90 degrees.

While there is quite a bit of variation in the schreger lines depending on what portion of the tusk is examined, the angles will be more acute in extinct mammoth or mastodon.
Multiple samples need to be examined to come to a definitive conclusion.

While schreger lines are a good way to determine whether the piece is mammoth/mastodon or elephant, there are initially easier ways.
  • Mammoth and mastodon have outer "bark" which oftentimes absorbs color from the surrounding soils.
    These colors cannot be replicated in elephant ivory
  • Mammoth and mastodon interior tusk pieces generally have a more off-white and can run in color to completely brown.
    I have had some interior mammoth that is chocolate brown in color. Great stuff.
  • Elephant ivory is generally lighter in color and the tusk shape is more straight or just a single curve.
  • Mammuthus primegenius displays a distinct double curve to the tusk
  • Mastodon can be single or double curved depending on the age and the specific sub-species
  • Also, when worked, elephant ivory and mammoth ivory have a distinct smell and aroma.
    They are vastly different
  • Green elephant ivory (newly harvested illegal stuff) is wet inside and also has a distinctive aroma.
    It is not pleasant.
  • Mammoth or mastodon can be "wet" from being buried in the ground, but the smell of the wet material is more earthy and is not at all like green elephant ivory.
  • The only time schreger lines really need to be examined is when there is a possibility of the object being made from extremely high quality mammoth material. This ultra high grade of material is rarely seen here in the USA because of it's exorbitant cost. Most times, mammoth/mastodon is easily distinguished from elephant with a cursory physical exam.

There is lots more to know about the differences as most of the remaining differences are very subtle.
Then there is the task of identifying the other forms of ivory, which can be a little more complicated.

I have seen raw, green elephant ivory that still had the blood on the ends of the tusk.
One of the more sad moments of my life.

And yes, the people who were trying to sell it to me went to jail.


Be good to yourselves.

t
 
rootes_of_ohio said:
Yes, the schreger lines in mammoth or mastodon interior run at an acute angle up near 115 degrees.
In contemporary elephant ivory, the schreger lines run more toward 90 degrees.

While there is quite a bit of variation in the schreger lines depending on what portion of the tusk is examined, the angles will be more acute in extinct mammoth or mastodon.
Multiple samples need to be examined to come to a definitive conclusion.

While schreger lines are a good way to determine whether the piece is mammoth/mastodon or elephant, there are initially easier ways.
  • Mammoth and mastodon have outer "bark" which oftentimes absorbs color from the surrounding soils.
    These colors cannot be replicated in elephant ivory
  • Mammoth and mastodon interior tusk pieces generally have a more off-white and can run in color to completely brown.
    I have had some interior mammoth that is chocolate brown in color. Great stuff.
  • Elephant ivory is generally lighter in color and the tusk shape is more straight or just a single curve.
  • Mammuthus primegenius displays a distinct double curve to the tusk
  • Mastodon can be single or double curved depending on the age and the specific sub-species
  • Also, when worked, elephant ivory and mammoth ivory have a distinct smell and aroma.
    They are vastly different
  • Green elephant ivory (newly harvested illegal stuff) is wet inside and also has a distinctive aroma.
    It is not pleasant.
  • Mammoth or mastodon can be "wet" from being buried in the ground, but the smell of the wet material is more earthy and is not at all like green elephant ivory.
  • The only time schreger lines really need to be examined is when there is a possibility of the object being made from extremely high quality mammoth material. This ultra high grade of material is rarely seen here in the USA because of it's exorbitant cost. Most times, mammoth/mastodon is easily distinguished from elephant with a cursory physical exam.

There is lots more to know about the differences as most of the remaining differences are very subtle.
Then there is the task of identifying the other forms of ivory, which can be a little more complicated.

I have seen raw, green elephant ivory that still had the blood on the ends of the tusk.
One of the more sad moments of my life.

And yes, the people who were trying to sell it to me went to jail.


Be good to yourselves.

t
Click to expand...

Tim could you please post some pictures of schreger lines for comparison? It would be appreciated.
 
Tim.
I've already sent my email .
I think it would be super if you would go to the other forum with this information you have written - both parts. Frank
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top