Thoughts on building folders

[EdCaffreyMS]

Steve Kelly (TiConnector.com) and I are best friends...we talk each Monday morning, and during our last conversation, something came to my mind.....Steve was telling me how some folks buy his hardware, then try to modify it to do what they want. (which sometimes goes badly) It occurred to me that many MIGHT be going about things the "hard way" when it comes to designing and building their folders.

First, don't try to design a folder, and then try to modify the hardware to meet the needs of the design. Get your hardware first, and design the folder around the hardware. By that I mean that you can still design whatever you want, but if you're buying .190" standoffs, don't try to shorten the standoffs, but rather make your blade the correct thickness...which is much simpler and easier then shortening standoffs.

With pivots, think about the entire length your project will need, and if available order those. (think about any counterbore depths, such as bearing pockets and/or pivot screws.) If you do have to shorten/trim pivots, remember that you MUST shorten them equally from each end.

With folders its really all about the math..... if your standoffs or backspacer is .190", and you're using .010" thick washers, then your finished blade should be .170" (.190 - .020(for the washers)=.170") Should you be using bearings, taking the time and care to make sure the bearing counterbores are as close to perfect in depth and square as humanly possible. (persoanlly I counterbore .050" for 1/16" (.0625) wich leaves .012 above the counterbore, which generally seat in approx .002, leaving .010 when everything is "broke in".

Without going on an on, your life making folders is MUCH nicer when you build to the hardware instead of trying to modify the hardware.

Just something thats been on my mind, and hopefully will help somebody.

 

[Calvin Robinson]

I agree Ed and will add this,your life making folders will improve dramatically when you learn make your own hardware.

 

[KenH]

Calvin is correct - making your own hardware does improve folder making...... simply because once you've got the skill to make those tinny-tiny pieces of hardware, you have the skills to build a folder!!! I'm still learning {g]

Ken H>

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

I completely agree gentlemen! Making your own hardware is the ideal situation, and those that can/do have the abilities to do those things I mentioned, like shortening pivots and standoffs. I was thinking more of the "younger" makers who really haven't made enough folders to understand what you obviously fully do....... telling that to guys like you would be "preaching to the chior".

 

[KCorn]

I agree with the above statements. I have only built a few folders and still have a lot to learn. I would like to add however that it would be very nice to have some hardware available that is easily find tuned to length with a pivot lap like what bossdog sells. I have spent a lot of time looking for titanium tubing with 2-56 clearance holes that could be cut and sanded to length. The reason I would prefer that method is it seems like that would be way easier than trying to get an exact thickness on the blade without access to a surface grinder. Like I said, I agree totally and Ticonnector has some amazing parts but lack of a surface grinder changes everything.

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Trying to surface grind Ti creates its own issues......Ti isn't magnetic, and it's always difficult to hold the workpiece. I've used super glue, various jigs, etc., but when you're dealing with thousandths of an inch, even a slight shift of the workpiece will wreck the project.

Ti tubing is difficult enough to find, but gets even more difficult is you look for specific sizes.

Folders are what made me purchase a surface grinder. I made my first 1/2 dozen with just a surface plate and sandpaper....and they still were not "right".......if you're serious about making folders, nothing pays more dividends then saving up and purchasing a surface grinder.

 

[Shane Wink]

Perfect timing and great advice Ed. Sometimes we tend to overthink things out of the shoot, I know I do. This year I have made up my mind to learn to make a solid and practical folder and again your advice was spot on.

 

[Plas62]

Ed - When using bearings, what is the minimum thickness of the liner material that you would recommend when milling a .050 deep pocket for the bearing?

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

Boy.....I hesitate to say what a "minimum" thickness should be.... personally I've never gone thinner then .090" when using bearings. I suppose the answer would be as thin as YOU feel comfortable using, and still have adequate material at the bottom of the counterbores to support the bearings/pivot system.

 

[Plas62]

Thanks Ed

 

[Justin Presson]

Ok Ed I'm taking your advice. I'm trying to get my material together to make a framelock.
Here is what I'm coming up with. If I order the pivot from ticonnector I would get the .375 length barrel. What I'm trying to figure out what size ti to order. I want .125 but I can't seem to find any, bossdog is out of stock I seen some in other places but not in the smaller pieces I don't want to drop $125 on Ti and then not use it cause I suck at making folders or something.
My other option is going up to .138 ti but not sure if that will be to thick to deal with or if I'm then going to need to change my thickness in blade to match proportions?
Here is my picture reference since math is a very visual thing for me I have to write it down, draw pictures and take my shoes off to get it to add up

I'm trying to get away with not modifying the pivot since they are like $11 each I don't want to ruin it

Also what is the normal counter bore depth on the pivot screws? That might change things for me too.

Any help is much appreciated
Justin

 

[EdCaffreyMS]

I'll use the following folder as an example:


The scales began as .156" Ti, the finished thickness of the blade is .170", the standoffs (back spacers) are .190".

I used 1/16" bearings for the pivot, with the counterbore on the insides of the scales being .050" deep (this leaves approx. .010" of the bearings above the interior surface (what the blade rides on) after they've "seated". (if you used bronze washers, you would use .010" thick)

The pivot is 3/8" long, with the pivot screws being counterbored approx. .050" on each side. That leaves .056" of "web" on each scale for the pivot to "rest" on. I did not have to trim the pivot. (the way to keep from having to trim a pivot is to pay attention to the pivot length, and to cut the pivot screw counterbores only as deep as the need to be, so as not to have to trim the pivot.

The formula for figuring what you need for a specific folder is: Finished thickness of blade + the combined thickness of two washers= the thickness of the backspacer or standoffs needed.

The reason I choose to use "thicker" Ti for framelock scales is that my motto, when it come to building knives is: You can always take material off....but you can never put it back! Meaning that I can remove material if needed, but if its not thick enough when I start out......I can't do anything about (excpect maybe start over with thicker material)

In the case of your drawing, IF you're going to counterbore the pivot screws, you just want to ensure the pivot is long enough to engage at least .050" of each scale (thats just the number I presonally prefer). Which means a 3/8" (.0375") would be plenty. All you have to do is ensure that when you counterbore for the pivot screws.....that you don't go deep enough to have to trim the pivot. (This is the major reason I choose to use the .156" Ti for scales). If you only have .400" total thickness, then you're only going to have a total of .025" COMBINED for pivot screw counterbore before the pivot will have to be shortened. The .426" total thickness is gona give you a BIT more....but still not enough in my opinion. (you would only have .025" deep counterbores on each side). If you're having a hard time finding Ti, talk to George, at American Metal Exchange... I buy most of my Ti from him (because I generally buy 24"x36" sheets at a time)

It sounds complicated, but its really not. Once you do a couple of folders, and have a few "duh!" moments, it'll all make perfect sense.

 

[Justin Presson]

Thanks Ed. I think I will go with the thicker blade .136 and either the .138 ti or .142 ti that alpha knife supply carries. I just like that they offer those thickness in small pieces so I'm not committed to so much money into a larger piece of Ti. I will have to be careful on my counterbores. That would give me about .03 counterbores which I know you said you like .05.