Grinding Style vs Knife Making Method

Blackcatt

Active Member
In general, and of course there are many notable exceptions:
but it seems that guys that stock remove like to hollow grind and guys that forge like to flat grind.

Why is this? Hopefully this can be a fun discussion topic for a Friday.

I guess I'm odd...I stock remove and almost exclusively flat grind.

How do you make knives and what makes you like your certain grinding style?
 
There you go trying to ruin my thread! :)

Joking aside, care to elaborate? Are you hollowing your less wide blades etc? I'm trying to gain some perspective on goals of design and how we try to execute them.
 
I tend to flatgrind my bowies or larger knifes since I can grind further up the blade. I hollow grind my tactical knives and hunters because of the better cutting edge I get from it. I have flat ground some hunters per request as well as hollow ground some larger knives. But I generally stick to what I said.
 
If there is a preference for knifesmiths to go to a flat grind it is because you can set up a flat bevel with a hammer, which is kind of difficult to do with a hollow or convex grind. However there are those smiths that do make hollow and convex grind blade. A convex grind can be done off of flat forged bevels and a hollow grind can be done by forging the profile with no or very slight bevels and a convex grind can be done from a flat bevel.

Doug Lester
 
I tend to flatgrind my bowies or larger knifes since I can grind further up the blade. I hollow grind my tactical knives and hunters because of the better cutting edge I get from it. I have flat ground some hunters per request as well as hollow ground some larger knives. But I generally stick to what I said.

Nicely said. I like flat grinds for their all around slicing and impact performance.
 
I am a remover, and do both, but mostly flat grinds, I like the added strength in the edge of the flat grind and when ground thin you sacrafice very little in cutting perfomance.
Dale
 
If I were dealing with material less than 1/4" thick, I might go with flat, but the blades I am working on now are short and thick, so I like the hollow grind to lighten them up. There are 2 tantos on my bench that are getting hollow/flat combinations.
 
My thought pattern must differ compared to others...my choice of grind is based on what provides the end user with the best combination of characteristics for their intended purpose(s).

This might be long winded, so indulge me. It's no secret that I consider "hollow" grinds to be inferior. I know saying that will get some folks up in arms, but let's look at it. What most folks call a "hollow" grind is really a perverted hollow grind. A true hollow grind is a set of arcs, beginning at or near the spine of a blade, and continuing on each side, intersecting AT the blade's edge. This produces a very fine, yet delicate edge, with great cutting ability, but very limited strength/durability. For it's intended purposes, the hollow grind is an outstanding grind....but was designed and intended for light, fine cutting jobs.
What many call "hollow" grinds today was brought about by a certain production knife company back in the 60s... Their engineers had determined that a specific blade, of a certain steel type would be produced at a particular Rc hardness. After producing and selling a number of these knives, people complained that the edges were brittle, with the company receiving many complaints and returns. Rather than rethink the blade material or the Rc hardness, the engineers decided to make a "quick fix" changing the way the blades were "hollow" ground with the express idea of increasing edge strength. The solution was to stop the "hollow" grind short of the edge, and produce larger edge bevels. It worked in the respect that the edges no longer chipped/broke. What they did not consider, was the impact the change would have on the cutting ability of the blade, and the end user's ability to sharpen the blade. Because of the action(s) of this particular company, it became the accepted norm for a hollow grind to have overly large edge bevels, and many custom knifemakers adopted the methodology, and passed it along. Over time it became the "norm" for custom makers to build their knives with this "perverted" hollow grind, because it was less work, and simpler to accomplish. Both are what I consider the WRONG reasons for choosing a specific grind. It eventually became known as a "Hollow grind" even though it holds little resemblance to a true hollow grind.
To be fair, there are those who still put forth the effort and time to create actual hollow grinds, but those folks are becoming fewer and fewer, and the fact that the true hollow grind is not an all purpose grind makes it even less evident in today's custom knife world.
Most of what I do is based on a flat ground blade, with a convex edge. It's not because I forge most of my blades, but because a blade that is distal tapered, then flat ground creates strength, with light weight. I can increase or decrease edge strength with the amount of convex I apply to the edge.
I guess what I'm trying to relay is that the knifemaker's thought process must go deeper than simply what looks good, or is easy to produce. If you're really serious about producing a custom knife that is superior to anything commercially available, you need to consider all the aspects that will make it so. Cutting resistance, geometry (both of blade and edge), weight versus strength ratios, and something I think is often overlooked by makers....the customer's ability to sharpen and use the knife. What we must do as knifemakers, is to put ourselves in the shoes of our customers...and not worry about what makes things easier on us when we are producing a knife, but rather think about what will give the customer the most usable, comfortable, easy to maintain knife we can offer them.
 
I agree with the entirety of Ed's statements. Well said sir.

I do both stock removal and forging.. Personally I like a flat grind with a convex edge, for the same reasons. And also tend to like a full convex grind on some blades.. Not because of ease to do, but to make the knife a better functional tool... Thats always my first priority.

Im not near as experienced as some of you in this area, So you may take this at face value.. The only place that I have seen a true hollow grind that makes any sense at all to me is on a razor.. A full hollow to the edge.. Adding superior sharpness and cutting ability, yet giving up durability and strength..

As with alot of things there always a trade off.. edge geometry is no different... Using the right one on the right tool will always make it better.. And educating yourself then informing your customers of the facts has always worked for me.
 
I do stock removal and really the only reason I use a flat grind is it is what i'm used to and I'm not really comfortable trying any other type of grind at the moment. But this is an awesome thread that has given me some insite into why other grinds are used. Thanks for bringing it up.
 
I guess what I'm trying to relay is that the knifemaker's thought process must go deeper than simply what looks good, or is easy to produce.

Very well said. Too many things these days are simply copies of what's fashionable or has been done before, with little thought given to why. No matter how well executed, a brilliant copy of a poor design is still a poor design.

The only place that I have seen a true hollow grind that makes any sense at all to me is on a razor.. A full hollow to the edge..

I agree with that, too. Hollow grinds are very specialized. If I remember correctly the hollow grind originally came into wide use not as a design feature, but because of the advent of large power-driven grinding wheels that sped up production. Those wheels were sometimes feet in diameter, not inches. At a recent show i saw some knives with +1/4" thick spines, barely an inch wide, and hollows so deep they must have been ground on wheels only a couple inches in diameter. How you would cleanly cut anything other than a hot dog or cord with that, I don't know. I suspect the makers of those knives were in love with the idea of a hollow grind and pushed the concept as far as they could for the sake of it, without considering that someone might actually want to use the knife. The craftsmanship was excellent but the knives were clunky, heavy and weak all at the same time, and I wouldn't carry one if it was free.

For general purposes, and especially heavy-duty knives, I've never understood the desire to weaken an entire blade to end up with the same or thicker edge as a full flat or convex, and a blade that gets "sucked into" and hung up in whatever it's cutting. Except for extreme examples (as above) the weight-savings is so minimal I doubt most of us could tell without a very good scale. As for balance, I'm definitely in the camp that loves nice even tapers. They work and look good, too. A strong, powerful blade can be quick and lively, and cut very well. Sure there are always tradeoffs but it's surprising how much strength and cutting ability can be built into a well-designed blade.

I can't decide if full flats or full convexes are easier... usually it seems like whichever I happen to be working on is the most challenging :biggrin:
 
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Yes Ed, as you said hollow grinds produce a great cutting edge 'WITH GREAT CUTTING ABILITY". Super for hunters and show knives. Frank
 
I mostly flat grind, however I have messed around with what Ed correctly calls a perverted hollow grind. Only done it on a few smaller hunters and almost all of those where 3/16" D2. D2 isn't going to win no prybar contest in the first place and I tell everyone that. IMHO D2 is about edge holding ability. I have learned that if I make the perverted hollow so that the first say 3/16 behind the edge is about the same as a flat grind and the hollow starts there and goes to the spine using a 10" wheel I get a lighter blade. Yes it is weaker, but as I tell everyone my D2 hunters are for cutting, nothing else. Some people like "hollows". Don't get me wrong I am not a big fan. Just want to add to my abilities and offerings. Don't recommend them. But, if the knife is used for what it was designed for it is alright.
 
Ed is right about knives being hollow ground they really arnt . I make a few convex blades but for the other 99% its hollow ground . The history of the term hollow ground came from the invention of the straight razor and goes back to the early 1800 s prior to 1820 all the straights were wedges and from then on became hollow ground depending on the maker . I dont have my chart handy but there are about 16 or 18 different levels of hollow grinding with the first 3 being called wedges. Now if a knife truely had a #2 wedge the blade would be super sharp but could break under the slightest pressure of a hard surface. If the same knife was a full or extra hollow ground same as a razor the knife would be discarded after the first use from boning out a deer as the blade would be broken or chipped beyond repair. I think a person should make what they are good at and I will be honest I have a hard time with flat grinding.I have only made 10 razors and they are all about #2 or #3 wedges when sharpened will spit hair like knothing ive ever seen.Im not saying a knife could never do this as some can but it isnt their intended purpose. I think if you have the proper hones and training in sharpening all blades is the key to edge holding capabilitys.kellyw
 
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