Help Design the perfect forge! Input needed...

BossDog

KnifeDogs.com & USAknifemaker.com Owner
Staff member
I am helping with designing a line of forges with a (an un-named) company. I wish I got all the money from the eventual sales but I won't. Not even a design fee I suppose but I will get a free forge to test. I'll make sure of that.

I will be selling these after they are developed so I want them to be on the upper end of quality and designed right.

Very preliminary plans are to release 1, 2 and 3 (venturi) burner forges. After that, we'll see about a blower version or two and get really fancy after that.

What features do you think should be in a forge?

What forges do you consider pretty good? How come?

Any input appreciated.
 
The biggest problem I have with a gas forge is where and how to avoid flux build up and the destruction it causes to forge linings. If someone offers a forge that can accomplish this, I will but one.



Fred
 
The biggest problem I have with a gas forge is where and how to avoid flux build up and the destruction it causes to forge linings. If someone offers a forge that can accomplish this, I will but one.

Fred

Already a design requirement. You can't avoid the borax flux from eating it up but you can make the forge floor easy to replace.
 
I would like one that comes with Talent please, and wide enough for a 'hawk but skinny for a blade. I always feel I'm "wasting" heat. A built in pyrometer would be nice and an opening back for the long stuff..........Randy
 
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definitely the option for a thermocouple, I know that from building three forges of my own, i tended to build too big using 10" 1/4" thick steel pipe a foot long and then going from there, won't even break BUT can't be portable. A portable forge would be nice, and an as mentioned above, an easily replaceable floor. Also a good idea would be burners that create swirl instead of impacting the work piece and a removable front and back and atleast a small door on either side with ledge so yo don't have to hold the piece with tongs while it heats. (i like to run around the shop like a chicken with my head cut off )
 
The floor can be covered with Kitty Litter to become replaceable.
The shelf would need to be a hard firebrick or Stainless Steel so it will not weld to your work.
I like large doors that can be blocked off to create any size you want. The last forge I sold had a large door and I used two pieces of 2X4 in solid stock to block the opening down to what I wanted. Just slide it sideways on a shelf under the opening. Same for the back door if wanted.
Needle valve for adjustments, ball valve for shutoff, both close to the forge. Pressure gauge close to forge also.
Adjustable (in and out) shelf for holding the handle of work when not using tongs.
 
Circular design! Circular design, and Circular design! Whether is be horizontal or vertical. Design and build it on the "KISS" principle. The more "bells-n-whistles" you put on a forge, the more time people spend "tinkering" with them, and the more they mess them up.
If you design/build something that is effective and efficient, the sales will take care of itself.
 
Supply the forge with a bag of Cast-O-Lite or Mizzou castable refractory to line the bottom with; maybe enough with instructions on how to line the forge with it all the way around as an option. I've had flux on the floor of my heat treating forge that has a coating of Mizzou over the ceramic fiber insulation for a couple of years and I don't see any deterioration. I haven't messed with any welding in my short pass through forge yet but the Cast-O-Lite that it was built from is supposed to be flux proof. I don't know if there would be a way to pre-install a castable refractory, at least on the floor of the forge, and get it to survive shipping, but you might look into it.

Doug Lester
 
after a few months of research I put together these designs and materials list.

Using a 12 inch diameter forge body. Two layers of 1" blanket 2" wide, the outer layer jointed at the top, inner layer at the bottom. Then a .25" of casted refractory around the entire inner diameter of the blankets, then using more casted refractory make a 5" wide shelf across the bottom of the forge(roughly 1.5" at the center). Then using some reflective coating like itc-100 or plastix, layer a .25"coating around the whole inside of the forge. This should allow for a lighter-weight forge body while still having a flux resistant bottom. The inner forge should come out to 7" in diameter(excluding the top to bottom section), and assuming you have a 22" long forge body, which will give you roughly 500 cubic inches of forge volume. It is also gives you a largely rounded chamber, while still giving you a shelf to set things flat on.

materials(all numbers rounded up to give arbitrary excess): 5.5'x2' insuwool, 100 cubic inches castable refractory, 7 cubic inches itc-100(or other reflective), 12" forge body.

155978_1749641663290_1306305885_1964716_5274571_n.jpg


I can post a clearer scan with all the hard numbers and calculations, I spent about 3 hours working the calculus figuring out exact volumes I would need to build it.
 
Just a thought, but why so many burners. Instead of developing three different venturi forges for one, two and three burners, why not make up a good one burner venturi and good one burner blown forge. You may cover a huge percentage of needs and wants with just those two and eventually offer other sizes based on feedback.

You're doing terrific things with your supply bus., Craig
 
I thought about a system of forge components. Many kilns can be taken apart in sections; why not a horizontal pipe forge? Using Kaowool, the sections would be pretty much "gasketed" when connected. You could buckle them together with SS tool box type catches. You could offer blank rings and rings with a burner port. You could configure your forge to many different lengths and burner configs. (This is sorta like Ron Reil's sliding in/out back forge door.) If you made them say 4" sections with removable floors, the floor sections could be the size of a 1/2 length fire brick "split." That way you could cut splits in half, two 4x4's, and easily make and repair floor sections that way.

I like how quickly inswool heats up. It's lightweight to ship, and easy/cheap to fix. Think along the lines of the first volkswagens. Simple design, easy to fix in the field, cheap parts. I think it would be preferable to castable.

You could make buckle-on door sections with an inswool liner and either blank-no-door for the back, or with a small or large door for the front or for both ends. I like to be able to use brick for the doors. Once again, cheap, easy to find, easy to work with. When they burn up, get more. You can make an angle iron "track" for a brick door cover to slide in, but I like to just have a big front and back hearth plate that they can sit on.

As far as portability, I have made forges that sit in a light rectangular frame. This naturally holds the pipe body. The frame has tubing sockets for removable legs welded into the bottom at slight angles. I used rebar for legs to travel with; you can be a bit more polished than that. The frame has holes for a sliding work rest bored in it- you could make pipe sleeves with set bolts. I've been able to travel to demos with all my brick, hoses, regulator, forge, frame w/workrest, and leather apron packed into my tin washtub/slacktub, and the legs pulled out and stashed with the rest of the barstock. Simple and easy. When you get there, you have a free-standing venturi forge that sets up in about 2 min. and it's on.

A front work rest can be very handy. I would take a page from grinder design. You want simple, articulable up and down, in and out. Two pipe sleeves for in/out on the frame, two rods that slide forward through them, each with a vertical pipe sleeve welded to the end to receive the up/down sliding work rest end.

You could have a 10" forge system, an 8," whatever. You could make the body sections universal for vertical/horizontal configuration and blown/venturi burners. When set up as a vert. forge, you could make a "blank ring" with front and back side doors and blank no - door ends. Or the horiz. forge could be turn vert., with the floor merely being a pad of fire brick that the open forge body sits on. This is how I have my welding forge set up now. It's easy to fix or replace flux-burnt floor bricks.

Make the burner ports large enough for SS burner flares. Standardize the flare size between your comparable blown and venturi burners so either can be installed into the same port. Does Rex Price supply all of the burners for any forge makers right now? The T-Rex burners are real nice, perhaps you could use them or offer them as an upgrade.

Think about how a grinder is the one-tool-does-everything solution in many small knife shops. It would be nice to have a forge with this versatility.

There are many heavy-ass "indestructable ultimate fuel efficiency insane forge-welding heat" forges for sale out there. I'd go with a light design. It should be capable of forge-welding easily though, be sure you do insulate sufficiently. At least 2" of 2600 degree wool. I'd sell ITC-100 on the side for those who want it. I'm not impressed with Plistix 900F. I burnt it up. It's not reflective like ITC-100 either. You get what you pay for IMO.

Just my two cents.
 
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Just a thought, but why so many burners. Instead of developing three different venturi forges for one, two and three burners, why not make up a good one burner venturi and good one burner blown forge. You may cover a huge percentage of needs and wants with just those two and eventually offer other sizes based on feedback.

You're doing terrific things with your supply bus., Craig

good question. Why 3 different models? that's what the market wants. The majority of forges are venturi but the forced air forges continue to gain popularity. 10 years ago a forced air forge was a unusual. Now if you are serious about making some big damascus billets it is almost a must have. The thing is that forge's aren't just for knife makers. Farriers, Blacksmiths and other metal workers use them too. Those guys probably out number knifesmiths 3 or 4 to one.
 
One more thought. Forges are like knives. There are factories that do a real good job of basically making them; however, the user/custom builder can spend the time to "trick them out" better. Some things would be prohibitive in time and cost for you to do. Let the forge buyer do these things; educate and even supply him with the necessities at a cost. And build your forges so that they can be improved at home.

There are all kinds of things out there. Intake air preheating. Blown ribbon burners. Waste oil burners. But they still mostly revolve around the basic refractory insulated circular heat chamber.

The ribbon burner is supposed to be very quiet, hot, efficient, and even heating. I've seen them in action, I can attest to the whisper sound quality and high, even heat. Never owned one so I don't personally know about the economy. These I believe have been around in the glass industry for a long time. That industry as well as the ceramics industry uses very similar heating apparatus to us. They heat large furnaces and so are concerned with HEAT and FUEL ECONOMY. Pick some of their brains.
 
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that is the first time I've heard of a ribbon burner. I will have to do some research.
 
The thing is that forge's aren't just for knife makers. Farriers, Blacksmiths and other metal workers use them too. Those guys probably out number knifesmiths 3 or 4 to one.

From that statement I'm assuming that your trying to design a forge for the widest audience possible? I can tell you from experience, Knifemakers are gong to be the only ones who get "picky" about their forges. Farriers and general blacksmiths are not going to have the same cares that a Bladesmith does concerning forges. As long as it gets hot on the least amount of fuel possible, then it's good enough. That's not slighting them at all, it's just a fact that most Farriers and General Blacksmiths tend to work with mild steels, where hot spots, exacting temps, or duration in the forge are of of little or no concern.

If your interested in selling forges to Bladesmiths, the forge(s) are going to have to be designed with that purpose in mind. The difficulty I see is that once most Bladesmiths become competent enough to realize a "standard" designed forge isn't working as well as it could for their purposes, they've acquired the knowledge, skills, and tools to build their own.
 
The size of the forge will depend on the size of the burner and nozzle selection you choose.
My forge is 6" x 14" Dia inside and runs very well on one of Larry Zoeller 3/4" side arm burners.
Larry's burners were reccomended for 350 ci of space and I'm just a little over.
You should be able to adjust your regulator thru the entire PSI range along with choking the air mix.
The option of a pyrometer w/ thermocouple would be nice.
My forge has a large front door to light the forge and for Maint.with a small working window.
I just wish I would of made a rear door if I ever need one. But the design is very simple.
The burner is mounted at the side at a secant and creates a nice swirl and does not blow directly
on my work. Like Ed said keep the design simple.
 
I havent seen a vertical forge offered by any manufacturer. It can be made with or without a blower and from a small size for personal use up to a big one for an all night forging party. Among the advantages of a vertical is the floor is kitty liter and can be scooped out and replaced in 3 minutes. The only disadvantage is the work can fall into it if there is no handle welded on. There can be a back door that opens for swords or long knives. A pyrometer is a must and it should have air blowing past the door to keep the handle cool. They reach welding heat in minutes if the liner is Kao Wool with a ceramic coating or equivilent. The heat source is at the bottom so it gives a very even heat with no flame blast on the work. There are lots of horizontals on the market but where are all the verticals? I have a 3 burner Mankel and dearly love it but I'm making a vertical right now. I could show pictures of it with just a little coaxing although it isnt quite finished.
 
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Bruce, are you going to tease us or show us the pics? Come on now, let us see.
 
Bruce,

Blown Verticles are available from good ole Uncle Al at Riverside Machine. Having used both I too like the verticle forge better than the horizontal for just the reasons you mentioned (although I built a horizontal).

Boss, I went the PID controlled route with a PID from Auber instruments.and gas solenoid. My take after using it a little is this.
To change the PID from 2000 degrees to 1500 is just an annoyance. It's FAR more convenient to tune the forge down to the temp you want. If the PID had a keypad to set the temp (like an Evenheat) it would take care of the annoying waiting.

After playing with my forge it honestly seems to me that making it PID controlled isn't really needed. It does hold temp well though.

I think a thermocouple is mandatory though.

To sum up- At this point my Ultimate forge would be like this-
Body-
Minimun 12" verticle body. with welded on work shelfs at both doors and an articulating arm that could be swung to either side (for supporting tong handles).

Top of body is basically an isulated cap with latches to the body and a handle on top for ultra easy acces to the inside of the forge.

I'd like tubular legs on it that are maybe 6" long and sized so I could slip some Black Iron pipe (available anywhere) into them to extend to make it freestanding or remove to make it table top.

Burner-
Forced air burner with a Blacksmith Depot forge blower wired with a speed control for easy tuning but also a gate valve on the air pipe.

Needle valve on the gas line.

Adjustable regulator with pressure guage. The guage that came with my regulator is a piece of junk for a forge IMHO. I've only had my forge running on 0 to 2 psi (roughly). I have read that 0 to 3 psi guages are available from welders supply which is an upgrade that I'll need to make to increase accuracy and repeatability of adjusting the gas pressure.

Other stuff-
PID and thermocouple included with forge.

A LONG cord for power to PID and Blower. Maybe 15 feet would be good. It's better to coil up extra cord and put a zip tie on it as opposed to needing an extension cord to run the forge.

A DETAILED and laminated manual with directions for properly lighting and shutting down the forge. This seems pretty basic but it was one of my main concerns as a newb to forges. IE- how do I operate this sucker without blowing myself up !!!!

Id also like to see a VERY DETAILED explanation of forge atmospheres and how to tune the forge for the desired temp and atmosphere.

In this day and age it would also be cool if the MFG had a youtube video showing this stuff in action.
-fire it up and run to 2300 and adjust atmosphere
-drop to 2000 and adjust
-drop to 1600 and adjust
-drop to 1425 and adjust

This would fully cover the entire range of temps used by the bladesmith for everything from forge welding damascus to normalizing to low end hardening for hamon.

I think that about covers it, LOL.

Boy I don't ask for much do I

-Josh
 
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I was considering building a vertical forge but was troubled by the problem of the possibility of dropping work into it. I got around this by building a horizontal forge that is only 7" deep with a pass trough. It heats only enough steel to forge in one heat reducing the time the steel spends at critical temperature. With care, I can still heat treat a blade that is 7-8" long, though I have a deeper forge that I use for most heat treating. The only heat treating that I do it the shorter forge is to normalize after rough forging. Too lazy to switch the blower connection over to the big forge and fire it up.

Doug Lester
 
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